#1978458 - 06/30/10 11:31 AM
Re: When do I go back !!!!!!!!
[Re: BSK]
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Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25233
Loc: TN
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How old will that top one be this yr BSK? 1st, 3rd and 4th picture are all the same buck. 1st and 4th picture are when he was 4 1/2 in '08. 3rd picture is when he was 5 1/2 last year. If he's still alive (and I know he survived last hunting season), he will be 6 1/2 this year. But we experience a strange "disappearance" of bucks after 5 1/2. We rarely, RARELY get pictures of bucks after 5 1/2. I'm beginning to believe that is a natural mortality window for most bucks in my area. I have a hard time believing that bucks can suddenly become impossible to photograph just by getting one year older (I can get numerous pictures of them--at night--at 5 1/2). Then again, anything is possible...
Interesting BSK, do you have him on film yet this year!
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#1978483 - 06/30/10 11:59 AM
Re: When do I go back !!!!!!!!
[Re: Winchester]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN
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Interesting BSK, do you have him on film yet this year!
I don't "offically" begin running my photo census until Aug. 1st. I don't want to frighten any bucks away from the salt licks before their antlers are fully developed (or at least close to fully developed).
But I just started testing some new cams/equipment and if I happen to get his picture during these tests I'll post it.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1978518 - 06/30/10 12:56 PM
Re: When do I go back !!!!!!!!
[Re: BSK]
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Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
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Loc: TN
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Good luck with him, you really need to get your hands around his Antlers this Fall!
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#1978524 - 06/30/10 01:02 PM
Re: When do I go back !!!!!!!!
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16967
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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But we experience a strange "disappearance" of bucks after 5 1/2. We rarely, RARELY get pictures of bucks after 5 1/2. I'm beginning to believe that is a natural mortality window for most bucks in my area.
While I'll be the first to agree my anecdotal opinions aren't BSK-grade science, it's my opinion that fully-mature bucks reduce their ranges, particularly their core areas, become less interested in rut participation, eat less, and may even go thru some sort of hormonal change (similar to menopause in humans). I think it's entirely possible they also have less need for salt (or corn, or any particular food item) in their diets, hence you're less likely to get their photographs. Add to this their having another year or two to figure out better where they're consistently least disturbed by us humans, and the fact they seem to become even more sensitive to human intrusion.
I don't disgree with your thinking about their natural mortality rates becoming higher around 6 1/2, but do think more than you might believe are living to 7 1/2. That said, it's also my belief that buck mortality rates sky-rocket post-rut of the fall they're 7 1/2 --- with most not surviving to the spring "green-up" period when they would become 8 years old.
Regarding fully mature bucks' rut participation, I think most continue to participate, but just are not as interested in chasing females as they once were. In fact, also believe their rut behavior shifts whereby it's more the mature females pursuing the mature bucks, i.e. the females go visit the old buck on the old buck's turf, very unlike the young bucks searching for females. The "old man" just stays put, and the girls come to him.
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#1978554 - 06/30/10 01:35 PM
Re: When do I go back !!!!!!!!
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN
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But we experience a strange "disappearance" of bucks after 5 1/2. We rarely, RARELY get pictures of bucks after 5 1/2. I'm beginning to believe that is a natural mortality window for most bucks in my area. While I'll be the first to agree my anecdotal opinions aren't BSK-grade science, it's my opinion that fully-mature bucks reduce their ranges, particularly their core areas, become less interested in rut participation, eat less, and may even go thru some sort of hormonal change (similar to menopause in humans). I think it's entirely possible they also have less need for salt (or corn, or any particular food item) in their diets, hence you're less likely to get their photographs.
The only problem I have with those concepts Wes is that I can get many, many pictures of 5 1/2 year-old bucks away from bait (corn or salt) each year. I have literaraly over a hundred pictures of 5 1/2 year-old bucks "doing their normal thing" during the hunting season, yet I believe I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of pictures I've gotten of 6 1/2+ year-old bucks from all the years I've been running photo-censuses. Now all of that changes when you start talking about high-fenced properties--I can get 6 1/2+ year-old bucks with ease inside even the largest high-fenced area--which leads me again to suggest a different level of mortality with "free-ranging" bucks.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1978637 - 06/30/10 03:37 PM
Re: When do I go back !!!!!!!!
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16967
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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The only problem I have with those concepts Wes is that I can get many, many pictures of 5 1/2 year-old bucks away from bait (corn or salt) each year.
 BSK, I may be confused as to what are your ascertains, as I meant to be stating (in agreement with you) that I believe fully mature bucks simply have less desire (or need) to visit either salt licks or feeders (at least when it comes to free-roaming deer).
I have literaraly over a hundred pictures of 5 1/2 year-old bucks "doing their normal thing" during the hunting season, yet I believe I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of pictures I've gotten of 6 1/2+ year-old bucks from all the years I've been running photo-censuses.
. . . . . (around 5 1/2 to 6 1/2) may even go thru some sort of hormonal change (similar to menopause in humans). . . . . (have had) another year or two to figure out better where they're consistently least disturbed by us humans . . . . become even more sensitive to human intrusion . . . . . just not as interested in chasing females as they once were . . . . rut behavior shifts . . . . The "old man" just stays put, and the girls come to him.
Now all of that changes when you start talking about high-fenced properties -- I can get 6 1/2+ year-old bucks with ease inside even the largest high-fenced area -- which leads me again to suggest a different level of mortality with "free-ranging" bucks.
I would expect much less mortality with captive deer.
And unlike "free-roaming" deer, even deer in large fenced areas have been at least somewhat to greatly protected from much of the developmental processes that truly "wild" and "free-roaming" deer are subjected. I would expect them to be less sensitive to human scent and human presence. Many of these captive herds also have their food sources intensely managed to the point they're provided "feed" and/or large forage plots, sometimes to the point of having little need to seek native and natural food sources.
As to extremely large high-fenced areas (say over 5,000 acres), large enough to encompass even seasonal and rut range shifting, can only assume even those "somewhat" captive deer are still "somewhat" protected from more natural free-ranging development, not to mention, most high-fenced operations are proactively managed to produce a lot more mature bucks --- more there, you get more pics.
I'm highly dubious of making assumptions on free-roaming deer behavior & mortality based on result findings from captive-deer studies.
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#1978663 - 06/30/10 04:04 PM
Re: When do I go back !!!!!!!!
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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What I'm getting at Wes is that I don't believe there could be enough behavioral changes in bucks from 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 to account for the lack of trail-camera pics I get of 6 1/2 year-old and older bucks, both at baited and non-baited camera set-up. In a free-ranging setting, I honestly believe 6 1/2+ year-olds bucks really aren't out there in any number, for whatever reason. I think they are a very, very rare animal, unlike 5 1/2 year-old bucks which are becoming more common all the time.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1978674 - 06/30/10 04:22 PM
Re: When do I go back !!!!!!!!
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16967
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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I probably give more credit to collective hunter skills than you may.
The President's Island "experiment" just goes to show how effective hunters can be in taking 5 1/2 and older bucks when they actually exist in more "huntable" numbers.
I suspect a large percentage of 5 1/2's are in fact killed by hunters, that's in addition to the normal more natural mortality. Still think more 6 1/2's "exist" than most people think, but they are a tiny percentage of the walking herd (free-ranging) in TN.
What I'm saying it that in addition to there being a lot fewer 6 1/2's (mainly due to hunter harvest), those surviving 6 1/2's "may" go thru some significant behavior changes somewhere around the age of 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 (something akin to a human going thru menopause on average at a certain age) --- this applying more to free-ranging deer.
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#1978721 - 06/30/10 04:57 PM
Re: When do I go back !!!!!!!!
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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You may be right Wes that most 5 1/2s fall to hunter harvest. But I do strongly believe that not many 6 1/2+ year-old bucks exist in the wild. I do know that where deer are protected from hunter harvest, free-ranging dogs, poachers, and cars (inside a high-fenced property or on large protected properties like PI), 6 1/2+ year-old bucks show up in camera censuses at the exact rate you would expect, given the population of 5 1/2 year-olds minus natural mortality. However, in most free-ranging situations, you may have several 5 1/2s each year, but those bucks vanish before they are 6 1/2.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1978813 - 06/30/10 06:10 PM
Re: When do I go back !!!!!!!!
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16967
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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However, in most free-ranging situations, you may have several 5 1/2s each year, but those bucks vanish before they are 6 1/2.
I think that most of those 5 1/2's are in fact killed by hunters, although the relative percentage of illegal kills (both out-of-season & in-season poaching) is much higher on this cohort than say 3 1/2 & younger bucks.
It is interesting to note how relatively few fully mature bucks of 5 1/2 or older are recorded when TWRA ages deer at any county check station or any WMA (other than one like President's Island where buck hunting is almost non-existent by comparison).
As you know, I've made much commentary about antler high-grading. I see quite a few 6 1/2-and older bucks roaming under certain antler restrictions, which is part of what's fueling my belief that hunters are much more effective and capable of harvesting 4 1/2 and older bucks than previously assumed. Many of these fully mature bucks continue to be "passed" and "let walk" by hunters at 4 1/2, 5 1/2, and 6 1/2 --- simply because their antlers don't measure up.
Yet those bucks born with larger antlers are almost all killed before they can reach maturity ---- very, very few of the "top end" antler genetics will be seen on a live buck any older than 3 1/2 "free-roaming" in TN. But with or without antler restrictions in the hunting area, hunters tend to selectively harvest more the larger antlered bucks, and selectively "let walk" the smaller antlered bucks.
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