#1973832 - 06/26/10 05:21 PM
Re: Faith in TWRA??
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BigCam50
8 Point
Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 2337
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
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...but not all passionate hunters want the same thing . . . . . . . . . some of the most passionate hunters on this sight have been dead wrong in thier assments of not only the state deer herds but even in thier own back yards . . . . I think we call that "conflict".  And part of why it's such a challenge for TWRA to sort thru all the various opinions of the passionate. Of course, there may be "conflict" even between the opinions of passionate deer biologists.  Best we can do is be civil in our disagreements, try to effectively communicate our thoughts, seriously listen to the thoughts of opposing opinions, and avoid doing things that harm the future of hunting. I particularly don't like to see hunters "divided" by different factions, such as the "bow" hunters and the "gun" hunters, the "trophy" hunters vs. the "meat" hunters, or the "bear" hunters vs. the "deer" hunters. These divisions may cause hunting to be outlawed much sooner than it would happen just from the actions of the anti-hunters, as I perceive the future survival of hunting is now based mainly on how we as hunters present ourselves to a mostly non-hunting public.
great post!
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#1973851 - 06/26/10 05:50 PM
Re: Faith in TWRA??
[Re: redblood]
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jakeway
TnDeer Old Timer
10 Point
Registered: 11/22/99
Posts: 3459
Loc: Hendersonville, TN, USA
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It's rediculous to think that TWRA really expects anyone to get anywhere near the legal limit. Silly for anyone to try.
I read the limits as TWRA's recognition that we can't kill off all the deer by killing does, so they put the message across. I like the limits the way they are; they let most people hunt the way they want, and the herd seems to be doing just fine. At least in areas I frequent.
I get to shoot as many deer as I can eat and give away, plus I don't limit out early in the season by shooting a nice buck in Archery or ML and then have to quit buck hunting. I only limited out on bucks one year,and that's because I shot a birthday buck on my birthday (January 1).
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It's not rocket surgery, for crying outside!
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#1974154 - 06/26/10 09:37 PM
Re: Faith in TWRA??
[Re: jakeway]
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Boone 58
16 Point
Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13564
Loc: Food Plot
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In recent years i am finding...especially around thanksgiving weekend..........where more and more occurences of folks shooting deer and then dropping them off at dump sites totally wasted, having not even taken the first piece of meat out of the carcass.. This absolutely fries my backside. What liberal limits have done is to allow the guy who loves to kill everything that walks the opportunity to do just that and not even use the meat. if every deer that a person killed was taken to a processor and paid a fee of 45 dollars it would break peoples bank....it is unaffordable to do that. There are some real slobs out there. this is the exception and not the norm but it shouldnt happen at all for self respecting hunters.
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#1974559 - 06/27/10 11:55 AM
Re: Faith in TWRA??
[Re: Boone 58]
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fishboy1
14 Point
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 9759
Loc: Warren Co
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Thanks for the good replies Wes.
I think ALL hunters need to keep in mind that each of us has a very specific set of desires. Call it the bullseye.
Each of us have a different bullseye.
One hunter might want a B&C buck.
One hunter might want a 5+yr old buck.
One hunter might want his first deer ever.
One hunter might want a couple does for the freezer.
One hunter might want 1 deer for the freezer, sex doesn't matter as long as they can get it on the limited time they can hunt.
One hunter might want a "bigger buck" than their last..could be a 4pt, could be a 12pt.....
One hunter might hunt for themselves and several others donating venison for some less fortunate people and want to kill many deer.
TWRA does a FANTASTIC job making a very big target for each of us to place our own particular bullseye on, without putting undue restrictions on all the other hunters in the process.
As long as they continue to provide regulations that create a "big target" I think they are doing a great job.
Shifting the regs to favor one small segment by legally limiting all the others is a bad idea.
One point about the "casual" hunter. Limit their opportunity, or how they PERCEIVE their opportunity and they will just quit. No fussing, no fighting, just spend their time and money elsewhere. License sales go down, TWRA looses revenue, we loose WMA's, we loose lobbying power against the anti's.... basically we all loose. I would rather SHARE my hunting experience with other hunters of all kinds than to loose hunting all together.
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A gun in the hand is worth 2 cops on the phone. No one can name a single power the government has granted itself that hasn't been abused. Socialism is for losers http://amillerphotoevent.com
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#1974649 - 06/27/10 01:43 PM
Re: Faith in TWRA??
[Re: fishboy1]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17071
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Fishboy, you and I both agree that overall TWRA has done a great job.
Shifting the regs to favor one small segment by legally limiting all the others is a bad idea.
One point about the "casual" hunter. Limit their opportunity, or how they PERCEIVE their opportunity and they will just quit. No fussing, no fighting, just spend their time and money elsewhere. License sales go down, TWRA looses revenue, we loose WMA's, we loose lobbying power against the anti's.... basically we all loose. I would rather SHARE my hunting experience with other hunters of all kinds than to loose hunting all together.
Your last thoughts summarize much of why many people like myself believe TWRA could make situations yet better if essentially all deer hunting were "either-sex" instead of so much being "buck only". Currently, ALL "statewide" deer hunting in TN (including Unit L) is "buck only" except to those able and willing to pay extra for "either-sex" hunting opportunities either by participating in archery or muzzleloader hunting, or by paying extra for a doe tag (and even that's not a valid option now in many counties) --- yet "either-sex" opportunity may be most particularly appealing to those most "casual" of hunters described above.
To my thinking and in line with Fishboy's thoughts above, the below is just a little "carburetor adjustment" that could provide significant benefits in
1) Improving the health of the deer herd,
2) Providing more opportunity to most hunters, and
3) Improving the future outlook for deer hunting:
Simply issue the basic "rifle" deer hunting license with
a statewide annual bag limit of 2 antlered and 1 antlerless deer (as opposed to the current "3 antlered, 0 antlerless").
It's even still three (3) "deer".
Absolutely nothing else would need be changed. Yet, with such a minor change, all hunters afield would see ANY deer of their choosings to be legal for harvest, and until and unless "a" deer were harvested, very little else to even think about ---- so simple, especially for those "casual" hunters who are less motivated to study the current varying regs for each of Tennessee's current 95 counties.
This idea should particularly be taken in the context that the "average" TN deer hunter is currently not even killing a single deer of any sex on an annual basis. Most TN deer hunters have been averaging about 1 deer harvested every 2 years.
Again, absolutely nothing else would have to be changed to implement this single change. Although in the future I'm sure the total antlerless limits for some Unit A & B counties might warrant a reduction, these varying "antlerless" limits by county and region are already being addressed annually (so is still no change from current policy).
Another thought related to Fishboy's comments about the "casual" hunters:
While this may in fact be the largest "group" of TN deer hunters (at least if counted by deer-hunting licenses purchased), this may be the only group that is largely restricted to "buck only" deer hunting regs. Yes, that's in part due to their unwillingness to pay extra for a doe tag, but also in part due to their lack of desire (and possibly money) in being forced to buy a muzzleloader or a bow & arrows, much less take the time to figure out how to use them.
Currently, archery and muzzleloader season segments (which combined account for about two-thirds of all deer hunting days allowed annually in TN) --- these are "either-sex" hunting opportunities --- while the more "casual" hunter who just wants to go deer hunting a time or two a year with the only deer-hunting weapon he owns (typically a centerfire rifle) the latter is regulated to "buck only".
I'll gladly give up some of my archery and muzzleloader "antlerless" deer opportunities if that's what's needed for TWRA to justify giving those "casual" gun hunters a single doe tag to go with their buck tag(s).
How about you?
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#1974687 - 06/27/10 02:44 PM
Re: Faith in TWRA??
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BowGirl
6 Point
Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 696
Loc: Tennessee
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Great post Wes!
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#1974788 - 06/27/10 04:33 PM
Re: Faith in TWRA??
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14956
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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I have a lot of Faith in TWRA.... They are the ones that work year round to give ALL...... Hunters the chance and choice to meet their goals...... THANKS
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#1974994 - 06/27/10 07:19 PM
Re: Faith in TWRA??
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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fishboy1
14 Point
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 9759
Loc: Warren Co
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Thats a tough one Wes.
TWRA has to strike a balance between harvest targets and revenues.
The current regs are likely the best balance between hunter opportunity, harvest numbers, and revenues.
Giving a "free" doe with every rifle license would likely decrease revenues (fewer "doe licenses" added to rifle license purchase) and possibly result in a much higher doe harvest than they are looking for in areas.
As soon as they allow does in with a rifle license, then everyone would scream if they didn't get the same in their area.
It WOULD likely increase hunter satisfaction as they would feel that they are getting MORE for the same license purchase, but how many more hunters would it recruit, and would it result in more revenues ?
TWRA does have to keep an eye on the bottom line as they don't get a free ride off non participating taxpayers like most Gubment agencies.
_________________________
A gun in the hand is worth 2 cops on the phone. No one can name a single power the government has granted itself that hasn't been abused. Socialism is for losers http://amillerphotoevent.com
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#1975270 - 06/27/10 10:17 PM
Re: Faith in TWRA??
[Re: fishboy1]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17071
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Giving a "free" doe with every rifle license would likely decrease revenues (fewer "doe licenses" added to rifle license purchase) and possibly result in a much higher doe harvest than they are looking for in areas.
At this stage, and exactly as I described above, should have very little impact on revenues. Most people buying a Type 94 would still be buying a Type 94. Besides, any perceived revenue reductions from fewer Type 94 (doe permits) could be easily off-set by a tiny increase in the cost of the basic deer hunting license, which would be both "perceived and really" worth more by including "a" doe permit.
A much higher doe harvest in certain areas?
To what degree that is a concern in those few certain areas,
why don't we take a doe or two away from the archery and muzzleloader season segments?
Like you said yourself, why are we so accommodating to the minority, at the expense of the majority?
As soon as they allow does in with a rifle license, then everyone would scream if they didn't get the same in their area.
That's why I suggested the statewide "deer" limit that comes with the basic deer hunting license could be "2 antlered and 1 antlerless" in ALL areas.
There could still be additional antlerless deer tags available in most counties, available via same purchase methods we've had for years. And speaking of revenue issues, what if that 3rd buck tag became available (NOT with the basic license as now), but only via a Type 94, Sportsman, Archery, Muzzleloader, or Lifetime license?
My thinking is that by exchanging the current 3rd buck tag for a single doe tag, we could then make the 3rd buck tag available via a Type 94 (just like extra doe tags). Geez, at this stage, doesn't it make more sense to be charging extra for extra buck tags than to be charging extra for the FIRST doe tag?
It WOULD likely increase hunter satisfaction as they would feel that they are getting MORE for the same license purchase, but how many more hunters would it recruit, and would it result in more revenues ?
Maybe providing a little better initial value, making it simpler, could only help make things better?
After all, it's usually happy customers that tend to keep coming back, happy to spend more, and their "word of mouth" is the best advertising for new customers. Many might be more likely to take friends and visiting relatives deer hunting if the regs were just a tad simpler, the chance of killing a "deer" (not just a buck) a lot higher, maybe revenues increase?
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#1975589 - 06/28/10 08:55 AM
Re: Faith in TWRA??
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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woodchuckc
8 Point
Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1625
Loc: Hickman County, TN
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Another thing that is important to keeping deer hunting (all hunting, actually) is to recruit new hunters. As the population in general ages, and especially the hunter population, we (both hunters and TWRA) have to take into consideration how we can make hunting something that the non-hunters find attractive and exciting. Most of us on TNDeer started hunting when the buck limits were more liberal, and I think it is fair to say that most of us took advantage of those liberal limits. This not only kept us excited and motivated, but also helped us to learn how to hunt. I don't want to see such restrictive regulations that new hunters are not able to experience this. Generally speaking, as we "matured" most of us changed our hunting goals and sheer numbers of bucks killed was not our primary focus. As BSK, BGG, and many others have pointed out, lowering the buck limit was only one factor in this, and part of it has been a general change in the mindset of hunters.
However, I think that the segment of "passionate" hunters who advocate things like 1 buck limits, antler restrictions, and other severe restrictions don't recognize that measures like this may have a negative impact on bringing new hunters on board. It may serve their hunting purposes and goals better, but do we want to possibly risk the future loss of hunting altogether by reducing future hunter numbers to the point of making us irrelevant just to cater to their hunting goals? Sure, in Unit L hunters can kill a huge number of does but I believe that part of the excitement of new hunters is killing deer with antlers - any size antlers (I know that it was for me). I think this is one important reason for not going overboard with restricting buck limit regulations. I think that we have hit the "sweet spot" with regulations - liberal enough that new hunters and those who want to be able to kill multiple bucks of any size each season can do that, and conservative enough that hunters who want to target mature or large-antlered bucks have a large enough population of them to be successful too. I am not strongly opposed to a two buck limit, but I really don't have any problem with keeping it at three.
Just my humble opinion!
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