#1941815 - 05/28/10 07:45 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Football Hunter]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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[quote=Wes Parrish]
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?/quote] agree with all that you said but this stood out to me Amen I got a few buddies that was looking for change and thought the grass was greener on the other side.... They are now broke and paying child support... theres alway a fine line when you reach a limit and start heading in the wrong direction... this normally happens when we push the limits and end up with a negative reaction... I have noticed that the guys that do this for a living think TWRA is doing a good job and the TN deer herd is in good shape... I'm going to listen to them a little more then all the arm chair QB's... Hunting one area, one farm, one hunting club, or 10,000 acres doesn't give you the knowledge to make changes for a whole state...JMO Maybe if Washington and Franklin and Jefferson didnt think the grass was greener,then we could come out of our deer stands for a "spot of tea" each day. Or maybe if ole Urban didnt think that Tebow was a little greener,and left Chris Leak in the whole year back when..... Sometimes the grass is,or might be greener,how you gonna know if you dont look?
Each one of those examples also had a negative effect. Asked the American Indians what they think about Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin... helping take their land...
Asked several SEC coaches without a job now, what they think about Myer and Tebow whipping them...
Kind of like UT firing Fulmer and hiring Lane Kiffin... That only set the program back about 5 yrs now...LOL Every positive effect will normally have a negative effect... I guess it depends what end you are on.. that matters.. 
Edited by gator-n-buck (05/28/10 08:08 AM)
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#1941844 - 05/28/10 08:18 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16968
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Kind of like UT firing Fulmer and hiring Lane Kiffin... That only set the program back about 5 yrs now...LOL
Which was an emotional decision based on a lot of angry people's "feelings", very unlike many of the ideas for deer management improvement shared by many hunter/managers.
Your Lane Kiffin "kind of like" comparison would more appropriately fit TWRA's increasing the November muzzleloader buck limit from 1 to 3 (a whopping 300% increase for a rifle buck limit) ---- very likely setting back the buck age structure gains and buck:doe harvest ratios about 5 years. It had taken many years for us to achieve what we've had, just like with Fulmer's football program, then someone decided to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Unfortunately, it may take about 5 years before that's figured out, if at all, since if we somewhat "hold where we're at" or make slight improvements, we'll never know how much better if could have been had they not made this big step backwards change.
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#1941900 - 05/28/10 09:07 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Your Lane Kiffin "kind of like" comparison would more appropriately fit TWRA's increasing the November muzzleloader buck limit from 1 to 3 (a whopping 300% increase for a rifle buck limit) ---- very likely setting back the buck age structure gains and buck:doe harvest ratios about 5 years.
Show me where this is occurring.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1941908 - 05/28/10 09:14 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: BSK]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3985
Loc: jackson co.
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Your Lane Kiffin "kind of like" comparison would more appropriately fit TWRA's increasing the November muzzleloader buck limit from 1 to 3 (a whopping 300% increase for a rifle buck limit) ---- very likely setting back the buck age structure gains and buck:doe harvest ratios about 5 years. Show me where this is occurring.
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#1941966 - 05/28/10 10:01 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16968
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Show me where this is occurring.
You may have misunderstood what I was saying (sure hope so).
I meant to say it may take us 5 years, into the future, for most to realize that this huge increase in the Nov. muzzleloader buck limit was a huge mistake. But it only took the 1st year to note that harvest ratios appear to be going backwards. Exactly how much of the reduce doe harvest can be attributed to this? I don't know. Some will say we simply have fewer does in Unit L. Yet at the same time increased doe-hunting opportunities have been steadily expanding in Units A & B.
The fact we increased the buck limit and simultaneously increased the harvest of "older" bucks is a moot point --- the first year or two of the increase. The big point is that it took several years for those "older" bucks to accumulate to their current density, and we may now be taking out more 3 1/2 and older ones than are being replaced a year later. Likewise, the female deer may be carrying forward at a relativley higher rate than males, further reducing herd quality.
Only time will tell.
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#1941989 - 05/28/10 10:37 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Winchester
Non-Typical
Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25234
Loc: TN
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The buck limit increase during the Nov MZ is one of those things that will always be a mystery, even TWRA cant give a valid excuse for this one (simplicity) is all they will say. Oh well just like TWRA said, maybe it wont do too much damage! Change can absolutely be good, but making HUGE 3 and 4 hundred % increases, especially in unit B, all at one time, is absolutely unexplainable! lol oh well, luckily atleast the hunters themselves have used some restraint and MAYBE we wont do too much damage!
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#1942158 - 05/28/10 02:16 PM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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The fact we increased the buck limit and simultaneously increased the harvest of "older" bucks is a moot point...
Why is it a moot point? If we can increase opportunity while still improving actual results, isn't that the best of both worlds?
The big point is that it took several years for those "older" bucks to accumulate to their current density
A single age-class does not "accumulate." It is the result of the survival rate of that cohort the previous year. Now I understand the point you are trying to make, in that the number of 3 1/2 year-old bucks is the final product of survival rates each year starting as a button buck fawn crop, and then as yearlings, and then as 2 1/2 year-olds. But the number of yearling bucks being killed each year has been on a strong downward trend for quite a few years. If the number of button bucks produced each year is stable, this means an increasingly larger number of 2 1/2 year-old bucks in the pre-hunt population every year and resulting the possibility of a larger population of 3 1/2 year-old bucks every year.
...and we may now be taking out more 3 1/2 and older ones than are being replaced a year later.
Maybe. But do we know what the actual pre-hunt population of 3 1/2 year-old bucks is every year?
In addition, the huge increase in potential buck harvest the rule changes made possible doesn't seem to have occurred. Looking at just county data (not WMAs), the statewide adult buck harvest only increased by an average of 16 bucks per county. That's a miniscule increase.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1943841 - 05/30/10 08:09 PM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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[quote=Wes Parrish]
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?/quote] agree with all that you said but this stood out to me Amen I got a few buddies that was looking for change and thought the grass was greener on the other side.... They are now broke and paying child support... theres alway a fine line when you reach a limit and start heading in the wrong direction... this normally happens when we push the limits and end up with a negative reaction... I have noticed that the guys that do this for a living think TWRA is doing a good job and the TN deer herd is in good shape... I'm going to listen to them a little more then all the arm chair QB's... Hunting one area, one farm, one hunting club, or 10,000 acres doesn't give you the knowledge to make changes for a whole state...JMO Maybe if Washington and Franklin and Jefferson didnt think the grass was greener,then we could come out of our deer stands for a "spot of tea" each day. Or maybe if ole Urban didnt think that Tebow was a little greener,and left Chris Leak in the whole year back when..... Sometimes the grass is,or might be greener,how you gonna know if you dont look? Each one of those examples also had a negative effect. Asked the American Indians what they think about Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin... helping take their land... Asked several SEC coaches without a job now, what they think about Myer and Tebow whipping them... Kind of like UT firing Fulmer and hiring Lane Kiffin... That only set the program back about 5 yrs now...LOL Every positive effect will normally have a negative effect... I guess it depends what end you are on.. that matters..
Note:No actions by TWRA were requested in this post/FH
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1982728 - 07/05/10 11:21 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: richmanbarbeque]
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Team Browning
8 Point
Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2031
Loc: Chattanooga
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People do not realize how good we have it. Most people are just bored.
The smartest post in the history of the interwebs. Most dont rmbbq. I try to.
_________________________
The time to buy is not when you need something. Be prepared.
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