#1938986 - 05/25/10 11:19 PM
One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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I know we are all searching for an easy answers when it comes to several topics on this site:
Ky vs TN...
One buck limits...
Baiting....
meat hunters vs trophy hunters...
Soil vs limits...
I think its human nature to look for a simple answer for a complex problem... Life never seems to work that way and changes don't alway solve the problem... One last thing... If you think we have it bad, look at some other states that wish they had the deer we do... Its human nature to always want more but theres a limit to everything in life...JMO
Edited by gator-n-buck (05/26/10 07:20 AM)
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#1939017 - 05/26/10 05:19 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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richmanbarbeque
16 Point
Registered: 07/17/03
Posts: 12771
Loc: Middle, Tn
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I come from Az. I will never complain about the deer hunting here. People do not realize how good we have it. Most people are just bored.
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#1939056 - 05/26/10 06:18 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: richmanbarbeque]
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Snake
16 Point
Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 15502
Loc: McMinn Co.Tennessee U.S.
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I come from Az. I will never complain about the deer hunting here. People do not realize how good we have it. Most people are just bored.
Ditto some would complain no matter the regulations !!
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No matter the storm , when you are with God , there's always a rainbow waiting .
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#1939057 - 05/26/10 06:22 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Snake]
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Bottom Hunter
16 Point
Registered: 12/29/06
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Loc: Hatchie Bottoms
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building a better mouse trap......lol.
BH
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#1939105 - 05/26/10 07:47 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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I think its human nature to look for a simple answer for a complex problem...
That's part of Human Nature and one of the primary reasons we are such a successful species--we have the ability to reason and formulate a "better/easier way" in our minds without having to actually try it first.
Although this skill has made us highly successful, when it comes to finding the "complete answer" to any question, we tend to fall short. Our minds want to lock onto to the easiest and simplest answer, even when the answers are often very complex. In fact, extreme complexity tends to cause the human mind to "rebel" and look for easier answers. Many psychologists and sociologists believe that is why "New Age" (actually, reworked Old Age) beliefs have become so popular. It's a lot easier to believe in crystalography, shamans, whitchcraft, etc. than to believe the nearly unfathomably complex truth.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1939234 - 05/26/10 09:58 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24565
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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I know we are all searching for an easy answers when it comes to several topics on this site:
Ky vs TN...
One buck limits...
Baiting....
meat hunters vs trophy hunters...
Soil vs limits...
I think its human nature to look for a simple answer for a complex problem... Life never seems to work that way and changes don't alway solve the problem... One last thing... If you think we have it bad, look at some other states that wish they had the deer we do... Its human nature to always want more but theres a limit to everything in life...JMO
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1939270 - 05/26/10 10:38 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Football Hunter]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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It is also human nature to become complacent and lazy, allowing "great" situations to deteriorate into "just OK", and then deteriorate into "bad" situations.
From an overall perspective we may very well have the best state wildlife agency in the Southeast with our TWRA.
And I believe THESE are THE GOOD OLE DAYS of DEER HUNTING in TENNESSEE right NOW!
But I also know that human nature is complacent and lazy, and the only thing constant is change. Change for the better, or change for the worse, but nothing stays the same.
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?
The do-nothing alternative could be to let a good thing slip away, as in that the more complacent we become as hunters, perhaps the more complacent those become who "manage" the public wildlife (in regard to the preferences of hunters). It's just human nature.
Most problems begin with a lack of effective communication. If we keep the doors of communication open between everyone and the TWRA, not only can we keep things great, but maybe even make things better.
OPPORTUNITY is a terrible thing to waste.
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#1939329 - 05/26/10 11:39 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3990
Loc: jackson co.
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[quote=Wes Parrish]
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?/quote] agree with all that you said but this stood out to me
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#1939458 - 05/26/10 01:27 PM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: mathews338]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24565
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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[quote=Wes Parrish]
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?/quote] agree with all that you said but this stood out to me
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1939659 - 05/26/10 05:02 PM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: mathews338]
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BowGirl
6 Point
Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 696
Loc: Tennessee
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[quote=Wes Parrish]
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?/quote] agree with all that you said but this stood out to me
Amen
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#1939724 - 05/26/10 05:51 PM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Boone 58
16 Point
Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13540
Loc: Food Plot
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I agree, i started hunting here in Tennessee in 1974 and i can tell you times were tough where i hunted. If you spent the entire season and "saw" deer you had bragging rights! It was 5 years before i killed my first buck and i participated in the first doe hunts in 1979 in Giles county and killed my first one just after daylight. We have come so far and now i kill a 16" 8 point almost yearly for the last 5 of 7 seasons and passed on many in the 12 to 13 inch range! I am well pleased in where we are in the Good Ole days right now! good post!
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#1940175 - 05/26/10 11:03 PM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: BowGirl]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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[quote=Wes Parrish]
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?/quote] agree with all that you said but this stood out to me Amen
I got a few buddies that was looking for change and thought the grass was greener on the other side.... They are now broke and paying child support... theres alway a fine line when you reach a limit and start heading in the wrong direction... this normally happens when we push the limits and end up with a negative reaction... I have noticed that the guys that do this for a living think TWRA is doing a good job and the TN deer herd is in good shape... I'm going to listen to them a little more then all the arm chair QB's... Hunting one area, one farm, one hunting club, or 10,000 acres doesn't give you the knowledge to make changes for a whole state...JMO
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#1940186 - 05/26/10 11:19 PM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BowGirl
6 Point
Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 696
Loc: Tennessee
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It is also human nature to become complacent and lazy, allowing "great" situations to deteriorate into "just OK", and then deteriorate into "bad" situations.
From an overall perspective we may very well have the best state wildlife agency in the Southeast with our TWRA.
And I believe THESE are THE GOOD OLE DAYS of DEER HUNTING in TENNESSEE right NOW!
But I also know that human nature is complacent and lazy, and the only thing constant is change. Change for the better, or change for the worse, but nothing stays the same.
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?
The do-nothing alternative could be to let a good thing slip away, as in that the more complacent we become as hunters, perhaps the more complacent those become who "manage" the public wildlife (in regard to the preferences of hunters). It's just human nature.
Most problems begin with a lack of effective communication. If we keep the doors of communication open between everyone and the TWRA, not only can we keep things great, but maybe even make things better.
OPPORTUNITY is a terrible thing to waste.
Great post.
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#1940366 - 05/27/10 08:43 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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BIGORANGE
8 Point
Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 1782
Loc: Memphis, TN
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I know we are all searching for an easy answers when it comes to several topics on this site:
Ky vs TN...
One buck limits...
Baiting....
meat hunters vs trophy hunters...
Soil vs limits...
I think its human nature to look for a simple answer for a complex problem... Life never seems to work that way and changes don't alway solve the problem... One last thing... If you think we have it bad, look at some other states that wish they had the deer we do... Its human nature to always want more but theres a limit to everything in life...JMO
Good Post GnB! 
_________________________
"Our houses are protected
By the good Lord and a gun
And you might meet 'em both
If you show up here not welcome, son."
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#1940525 - 05/27/10 10:28 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Winchester
Non-Typical
Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25247
Loc: TN
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[quote=Wes Parrish]
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?/quote] agree with all that you said but this stood out to me Amen I got a few buddies that was looking for change and thought the grass was greener on the other side.... They are now broke and paying child support... theres alway a fine line when you reach a limit and start heading in the wrong direction... this normally happens when we push the limits and end up with a negative reaction... I have noticed that the guys that do this for a living think TWRA is doing a good job and the TN deer herd is in good shape... I'm going to listen to them a little more then all the arm chair QB's... Hunting one area, one farm, one hunting club, or 10,000 acres doesn't give you the knowledge to make changes for a whole state...JMO
Good post GNB. I think its a good idea for most of what TWRA does be public knowledge, and I think its great that we sportsman who pay their salary's have atleast a small input in what happens. That being said, I will have to agree that they do a good job overall, as they have a lot of area to oversee and manage in many different aspects. I think its great that we can atleast voice our opinion, but never should a few hunters/fisherman be able to show up and get changes made either good or bad, by simply showing up at a meeting. This part I totally disagree with, and think our system is much flawed in this area.
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#1941051 - 05/27/10 05:35 PM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3990
Loc: jackson co.
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[quote=Wes Parrish]
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?/quote] agree with all that you said but this stood out to me Amen I got a few buddies that was looking for change and thought the grass was greener on the other side.... They are now broke and paying child support... theres alway a fine line when you reach a limit and start heading in the wrong direction... this normally happens when we push the limits and end up with a negative reaction... I have noticed that the guys that do this for a living think TWRA is doing a good job and the TN deer herd is in good shape... I'm going to listen to them a little more then all the arm chair QB's... Hunting one area, one farm, one hunting club, or 10,000 acres doesn't give you the knowledge to make changes for a whole state...JMO
TWRA is doing good, deer hunting is better than ever in this state. some just think it could be better
Not bashing TWRA but what do you think is the number one cause of this state getting better? I think it is the hunters themselves that are by letting them walk more often now. Just look at all the clubs/leases that have AR's, most the ones that i know of or hear of do.
Sometimes the grass is greener on the other side, your buddies just didn't know how to get there!
Edited by mathews338 (05/27/10 05:36 PM)
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#1941324 - 05/27/10 08:16 PM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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moondawg
16 Point
Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 17777
Loc: Millington, TN
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[quote=BowGirl][quote=mathews338][quote=Wes Parrish]
Hunting one area, one farm, one hunting club, or 10,000 acres doesn't give you the knowledge to make changes for a whole state...JMO
Absolutely correct, IMO. I hunt one little bitty part of Fayette county, which is mostly farm. It's what I know. However, I could'nt tell you how to hunt the mountains of East TN or the hills of Middle TN, or a swamp/wetland in West TN.
But that's the great thing about this forum, people that hunt other parts of the state can fill in information as to the areas they hunt. Then the biologists (real and armchair) can use that to apply their knowledge.
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Don't look down, BE down!--Turkeyburd (Prevous 2012)
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#1941779 - 05/28/10 06:52 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24565
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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[quote=Wes Parrish]
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?/quote] agree with all that you said but this stood out to me Amen I got a few buddies that was looking for change and thought the grass was greener on the other side.... They are now broke and paying child support... theres alway a fine line when you reach a limit and start heading in the wrong direction... this normally happens when we push the limits and end up with a negative reaction... I have noticed that the guys that do this for a living think TWRA is doing a good job and the TN deer herd is in good shape... I'm going to listen to them a little more then all the arm chair QB's... Hunting one area, one farm, one hunting club, or 10,000 acres doesn't give you the knowledge to make changes for a whole state...JMO
Or maybe if ole Urban didnt think that Tebow was a little greener,and left Chris Leak in the whole year back when.....
Sometimes the grass is,or might be greener,how you gonna know if you dont look?
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1941815 - 05/28/10 07:45 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Football Hunter]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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[quote=Wes Parrish]
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?/quote] agree with all that you said but this stood out to me Amen I got a few buddies that was looking for change and thought the grass was greener on the other side.... They are now broke and paying child support... theres alway a fine line when you reach a limit and start heading in the wrong direction... this normally happens when we push the limits and end up with a negative reaction... I have noticed that the guys that do this for a living think TWRA is doing a good job and the TN deer herd is in good shape... I'm going to listen to them a little more then all the arm chair QB's... Hunting one area, one farm, one hunting club, or 10,000 acres doesn't give you the knowledge to make changes for a whole state...JMO Maybe if Washington and Franklin and Jefferson didnt think the grass was greener,then we could come out of our deer stands for a "spot of tea" each day. Or maybe if ole Urban didnt think that Tebow was a little greener,and left Chris Leak in the whole year back when..... Sometimes the grass is,or might be greener,how you gonna know if you dont look?
Each one of those examples also had a negative effect. Asked the American Indians what they think about Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin... helping take their land...
Asked several SEC coaches without a job now, what they think about Myer and Tebow whipping them...
Kind of like UT firing Fulmer and hiring Lane Kiffin... That only set the program back about 5 yrs now...LOL Every positive effect will normally have a negative effect... I guess it depends what end you are on.. that matters.. 
Edited by gator-n-buck (05/28/10 08:08 AM)
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#1941844 - 05/28/10 08:18 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Kind of like UT firing Fulmer and hiring Lane Kiffin... That only set the program back about 5 yrs now...LOL
Which was an emotional decision based on a lot of angry people's "feelings", very unlike many of the ideas for deer management improvement shared by many hunter/managers.
Your Lane Kiffin "kind of like" comparison would more appropriately fit TWRA's increasing the November muzzleloader buck limit from 1 to 3 (a whopping 300% increase for a rifle buck limit) ---- very likely setting back the buck age structure gains and buck:doe harvest ratios about 5 years. It had taken many years for us to achieve what we've had, just like with Fulmer's football program, then someone decided to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Unfortunately, it may take about 5 years before that's figured out, if at all, since if we somewhat "hold where we're at" or make slight improvements, we'll never know how much better if could have been had they not made this big step backwards change.
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#1941900 - 05/28/10 09:07 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Your Lane Kiffin "kind of like" comparison would more appropriately fit TWRA's increasing the November muzzleloader buck limit from 1 to 3 (a whopping 300% increase for a rifle buck limit) ---- very likely setting back the buck age structure gains and buck:doe harvest ratios about 5 years.
Show me where this is occurring.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1941908 - 05/28/10 09:14 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: BSK]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3990
Loc: jackson co.
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Your Lane Kiffin "kind of like" comparison would more appropriately fit TWRA's increasing the November muzzleloader buck limit from 1 to 3 (a whopping 300% increase for a rifle buck limit) ---- very likely setting back the buck age structure gains and buck:doe harvest ratios about 5 years. Show me where this is occurring.
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#1941966 - 05/28/10 10:01 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Show me where this is occurring.
You may have misunderstood what I was saying (sure hope so).
I meant to say it may take us 5 years, into the future, for most to realize that this huge increase in the Nov. muzzleloader buck limit was a huge mistake. But it only took the 1st year to note that harvest ratios appear to be going backwards. Exactly how much of the reduce doe harvest can be attributed to this? I don't know. Some will say we simply have fewer does in Unit L. Yet at the same time increased doe-hunting opportunities have been steadily expanding in Units A & B.
The fact we increased the buck limit and simultaneously increased the harvest of "older" bucks is a moot point --- the first year or two of the increase. The big point is that it took several years for those "older" bucks to accumulate to their current density, and we may now be taking out more 3 1/2 and older ones than are being replaced a year later. Likewise, the female deer may be carrying forward at a relativley higher rate than males, further reducing herd quality.
Only time will tell.
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#1941989 - 05/28/10 10:37 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Winchester
Non-Typical
Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25247
Loc: TN
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The buck limit increase during the Nov MZ is one of those things that will always be a mystery, even TWRA cant give a valid excuse for this one (simplicity) is all they will say. Oh well just like TWRA said, maybe it wont do too much damage! Change can absolutely be good, but making HUGE 3 and 4 hundred % increases, especially in unit B, all at one time, is absolutely unexplainable! lol oh well, luckily atleast the hunters themselves have used some restraint and MAYBE we wont do too much damage!
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#1942158 - 05/28/10 02:16 PM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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The fact we increased the buck limit and simultaneously increased the harvest of "older" bucks is a moot point...
Why is it a moot point? If we can increase opportunity while still improving actual results, isn't that the best of both worlds?
The big point is that it took several years for those "older" bucks to accumulate to their current density
A single age-class does not "accumulate." It is the result of the survival rate of that cohort the previous year. Now I understand the point you are trying to make, in that the number of 3 1/2 year-old bucks is the final product of survival rates each year starting as a button buck fawn crop, and then as yearlings, and then as 2 1/2 year-olds. But the number of yearling bucks being killed each year has been on a strong downward trend for quite a few years. If the number of button bucks produced each year is stable, this means an increasingly larger number of 2 1/2 year-old bucks in the pre-hunt population every year and resulting the possibility of a larger population of 3 1/2 year-old bucks every year.
...and we may now be taking out more 3 1/2 and older ones than are being replaced a year later.
Maybe. But do we know what the actual pre-hunt population of 3 1/2 year-old bucks is every year?
In addition, the huge increase in potential buck harvest the rule changes made possible doesn't seem to have occurred. Looking at just county data (not WMAs), the statewide adult buck harvest only increased by an average of 16 bucks per county. That's a miniscule increase.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1943841 - 05/30/10 08:09 PM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24565
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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[quote=Wes Parrish]
Not looking for any simple solutions, but just count me as one who prefers being more proactive in trying to make things better, even if they're already good. Why not?/quote] agree with all that you said but this stood out to me Amen I got a few buddies that was looking for change and thought the grass was greener on the other side.... They are now broke and paying child support... theres alway a fine line when you reach a limit and start heading in the wrong direction... this normally happens when we push the limits and end up with a negative reaction... I have noticed that the guys that do this for a living think TWRA is doing a good job and the TN deer herd is in good shape... I'm going to listen to them a little more then all the arm chair QB's... Hunting one area, one farm, one hunting club, or 10,000 acres doesn't give you the knowledge to make changes for a whole state...JMO Maybe if Washington and Franklin and Jefferson didnt think the grass was greener,then we could come out of our deer stands for a "spot of tea" each day. Or maybe if ole Urban didnt think that Tebow was a little greener,and left Chris Leak in the whole year back when..... Sometimes the grass is,or might be greener,how you gonna know if you dont look? Each one of those examples also had a negative effect. Asked the American Indians what they think about Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin... helping take their land... Asked several SEC coaches without a job now, what they think about Myer and Tebow whipping them... Kind of like UT firing Fulmer and hiring Lane Kiffin... That only set the program back about 5 yrs now...LOL Every positive effect will normally have a negative effect... I guess it depends what end you are on.. that matters..
Note:No actions by TWRA were requested in this post/FH
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The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1982728 - 07/05/10 11:21 AM
Re: One thing I have learned since viewing this site..
[Re: richmanbarbeque]
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Team Browning
8 Point
Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2033
Loc: Chattanooga
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People do not realize how good we have it. Most people are just bored.
The smartest post in the history of the interwebs. Most dont rmbbq. I try to.
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The time to buy is not when you need something. Be prepared.
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