#1939336 - 05/26/10 11:47 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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In my personal sector I am running 20 cameras, 10 on each side covering 2 parcels on each side, each with very similar habitat, terrain etc etc.
There are 5 other guys working on this with me and they have similar sectors. Very interesting, and yes, I understand why you cannot tell everything you know, until it's time. But how many acres (or average distance between) per camera set-up?
Just depends, some are really just one valley away, some are a mile apart. Some are 500 yards, some are 3 miles.
The way we did it, is that we would try and match areas, by land size, access, habitat types, forest stand types, potential hunting pressure, human influences current/past (strip mining etc), and then go from there.
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#1939598 - 05/26/10 03:57 PM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: Good time Charlie]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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1 buck limit, is the biggest reason.I live just minutes from ky. and I have seen some bruisers that come from land bordering the cumberland gap park,and others.Lots of wilderness and old reclaimed strip mines.They kill big deer every year.
You should see some of the absolute monsters in Fentress County. 2/3 buck limit hasn't hurt that area, and it's quite mountaineous.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1939609 - 05/26/10 04:09 PM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: BSK]
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smstone22
16 Point
Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 16255
Loc: Allardt, TN
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1 buck limit, is the biggest reason.I live just minutes from ky. and I have seen some bruisers that come from land bordering the cumberland gap park,and others.Lots of wilderness and old reclaimed strip mines.They kill big deer every year. You should see some of the absolute monsters in Fentress County. 2/3 buck limit hasn't hurt that area, and it's quite mountaineous.
But most of those "monsters" dont come from land that is actually affected by the current regulations. Most come from large tracts with restrictions. Places around here that arent kept away from poachers and antler hungry hunters are just like the rest of the state. We are just blessed to have several large protected tracts and very hard to access public land.
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-QDM=Better Deer, Better Deer Hunting
- Fentress Roots 200 years and growing
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#1940011 - 05/26/10 08:38 PM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: smstone22]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16952
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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But most of those "monsters" dont come from land that is actually affected by the current regulations. Most come from large tracts with restrictions.
Good point, Mr. Stone.
Would also say a high percentage of the "monsters" taken all across the state have been in some way less effected by the state regs, i.e. killed in an area bordering a non-hunted area, or bordering an area under more restrictive regs than "statewide", or in fact coming off a large area under more restrictive deer management than the statewide regs.
Keep in mind a lot of the public areas all across the state where "monster" bucks have been taken most have very restrictive buck harvest guidelines (and very limited gun hunting, if at all) compared to the statewide regs, i.e. 1-buck limits in most cases, to say the least.
Again, I'm not wanting a statewide 1-buck limit, but the benefits of such towards enhancing buck age structure and buck numbers are noteworthy.
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#1940077 - 05/26/10 09:25 PM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: BSK]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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1 buck limit, is the biggest reason.I live just minutes from ky. and I have seen some bruisers that come from land bordering the cumberland gap park,and others.Lots of wilderness and old reclaimed strip mines.They kill big deer every year. You should see some of the absolute monsters in Fentress County. 2/3 buck limit hasn't hurt that area, and it's quite mountaineous.
Not going to comment on what you said earlier concerning the mountains and the geology? Just curious why you would make such a profound statement originally, then when challenged dodge the entire thing as if you never made the original statement.
Edited by Setterman (05/26/10 09:25 PM)
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#1940374 - 05/27/10 08:58 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: Setterman]
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tndrbstr
16 Point
Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 12157
Loc: knox co tn
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Not going to comment on what you said earlier concerning the mountains and the geology? Just curious why you would make such a profound statement originally, then when challenged dodge the entire thing as if you never made the original statement.
Some things which have been said are wrong, for instance that the Cumberland Mountains and Smokies are the same, and the geologic structure is the same. That is factually incorrect, simple research and knowledge of the area makes that obvious.
Is this the comment you are referring to?...or am I just confused agian!?..
The "mountains" of most of Eastern KY are very different geologically than what most consider the "mountains" of East TN. With the exception of the very southeastern tip of KY, their eastern mountains (East Kentucky Coal Field Physiographic Region) are erosional features; not mountain-building features. Those east KY mountains are just very highly eroded undeformed sedimentary rock, very similar to what we see at the northern end of the Cumberland Plateau in TN. Undeformed sedimentary rock will weather into much better and more fertile soils than true mountain rock like what makes up the East TN mountains (Smoky Mountain Region). Those mountains are heavily deformed metamorphic rock, which produces very heavy grained and large crystal structure rocks that do not weather to high quality soils. . The mountains along the TN and KY border are exactly the same. Both have been and are currently being mined extensively for coal, have the same soil types, same timber types, basically exact carbon copies. In the areas I am working in, many times the properties are only separated by a mile or less. I certainly hope you are not suggesting that the geology varies that significantly a stones throw apart. Because in reality that is factually incorrect. I do agree there is a huge difference in Southern Appalachian mountain geology, like the Smokies, and the Cumberland Mountain geology. But lumping all mountains in one category is misleading IMO.
Just what part do you agree with and what part do you disagree with..honestly, its hard for me to tell.... 
Other than just saying that BSK is wrong, it sounds to me like you are pretty much agreeing with everything he stated. The comment he made on the border area that you are doing your research* in as being geologicly similar in eastern ky as it is in tn(upper plateau) seems to be the same thing that you are implying.
No where did I read that he lumped all mountains in to the same group. In fact I interpreted it quite differantly. He even quotated "mountains" because of the varying peceptions that differant people have when they think of them in their minds...
No offence to BSK, but I just didn't read anything that was so dramaticly profound that I felt the earth trimble when I read it...
I certainly hope you are not suggesting that the geology varies that significantly a stones throw apart. Because in reality that is factually incorrect.
I certainly hope that your not suggesting, in geological terms, that extreme adverse conditions can not vary that significantly within a stones throw of each other...because in reality that would be factually incorrect.
Reality, now theres an intresting phenomenon,...
When my dog chases its tail around in circles, its reality is that its tail is in front of it...but I know better.... 
geeeze,...its gonna be a looong stretch till bow season.....
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#1940608 - 05/27/10 11:21 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: smstone22]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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1 buck limit, is the biggest reason.I live just minutes from ky. and I have seen some bruisers that come from land bordering the cumberland gap park,and others.Lots of wilderness and old reclaimed strip mines.They kill big deer every year. You should see some of the absolute monsters in Fentress County. 2/3 buck limit hasn't hurt that area, and it's quite mountaineous. But most of those "monsters" dont come from land that is actually affected by the current regulations.
I strongly disagree.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1940611 - 05/27/10 11:25 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: Setterman]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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The "mountains" of most of Eastern KY are very different geologically than what most consider the "mountains" of East TN. With the exception of the very southeastern tip of KY, their eastern mountains (East Kentucky Coal Field Physiographic Region) are erosional features; not mountain-building features. Those east KY mountains are just very highly eroded undeformed sedimentary rock, very similar to what we see at the northern end of the Cumberland Plateau in TN. Undeformed sedimentary rock will weather into much better and more fertile soils than true mountain rock like what makes up the East TN mountains (Smoky Mountain Region). Those mountains are heavily deformed metamorphic rock, which produces very heavy grained and large crystal structure rocks that do not weather to high quality soils. I do agree there is a huge difference in Southern Appalachian mountain geology, like the Smokies, and the Cumberland Mountain geology. But lumping all mountains in one category is misleading IMO.
Uhhh, gee Setterman, I believe that was EXACTLY the point I was making. When most people refer to the "moutains" of East TN, they are refering to the Smokey Mountains. The Smokey Mountains are VERY different geologically than the Eastern Kentucky Coal Field region.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1940615 - 05/27/10 11:33 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: tndrbstr]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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Not going to comment on what you said earlier concerning the mountains and the geology? Just curious why you would make such a profound statement originally, then when challenged dodge the entire thing as if you never made the original statement.
Some things which have been said are wrong, for instance that the Cumberland Mountains and Smokies are the same, and the geologic structure is the same. That is factually incorrect, simple research and knowledge of the area makes that obvious. Is this the comment you are referring to?...or am I just confused agian!?.. The "mountains" of most of Eastern KY are very different geologically than what most consider the "mountains" of East TN. With the exception of the very southeastern tip of KY, their eastern mountains (East Kentucky Coal Field Physiographic Region) are erosional features; not mountain-building features. Those east KY mountains are just very highly eroded undeformed sedimentary rock, very similar to what we see at the northern end of the Cumberland Plateau in TN. Undeformed sedimentary rock will weather into much better and more fertile soils than true mountain rock like what makes up the East TN mountains (Smoky Mountain Region). Those mountains are heavily deformed metamorphic rock, which produces very heavy grained and large crystal structure rocks that do not weather to high quality soils. . The mountains along the TN and KY border are exactly the same. Both have been and are currently being mined extensively for coal, have the same soil types, same timber types, basically exact carbon copies. In the areas I am working in, many times the properties are only separated by a mile or less. I certainly hope you are not suggesting that the geology varies that significantly a stones throw apart. Because in reality that is factually incorrect. I do agree there is a huge difference in Southern Appalachian mountain geology, like the Smokies, and the Cumberland Mountain geology. But lumping all mountains in one category is misleading IMO. Just what part do you agree with and what part do you disagree with..honestly, its hard for me to tell.... Other than just saying that BSK is wrong, it sounds to me like you are pretty much agreeing with everything he stated. The comment he made on the border area that you are doing your research* in as being geologicly similar in eastern ky as it is in tn(upper plateau) seems to be the same thing that you are implying. No where did I read that he lumped all mountains in to the same group. In fact I interpreted it quite differantly. He even quotated "mountains" because of the varying peceptions that differant people have when they think of them in their minds... No offence to BSK, but I just didn't read anything that was so dramaticly profound that I felt the earth trimble when I read it... I certainly hope you are not suggesting that the geology varies that significantly a stones throw apart. Because in reality that is factually incorrect. I certainly hope that your not suggesting, in geological terms, that extreme adverse conditions can not vary that significantly within a stones throw of each other...because in reality that would be factually incorrect. Reality, now theres an intresting phenomenon,... When my dog chases its tail around in circles, its reality is that its tail is in front of it...but I know better.... geeeze,...its gonna be a looong stretch till bow season.....
Now that I reread it, it is not as grossly inaccurate as I originally thought. Although it can be interpreted as inaccurate however, the wording is just too broad sweeping to be correct.
There is a significant difference between the northern Cumberland plateau and the Cumberland mountains, and the same goes for the plateau, Cumberlands, and smokies. They are all unique in their own ways.
With regards to the mountainous regions in Scott, Morgan, Claiborne and Campbell counties; those counties are geologically identical to the mountainous regions of Eastern KY. I am sure there are minor differences, but for the sake of a deer discussion they are not worth delving into.
I gather from BSK's statement, that he is implying that the mountainous areas of East TN other then the northern plateau are like the Smokies. Which is factually incorrect. They are not, and really not even remotely close to being similar. Same can be said for the similarities when compared to the Plateau, they are vastly different places, with unique geologic characteristics.
I also wonder why the use of the word mountain has come into question. As if the Cumberlands aren't worthy of being in the mountain category.
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#1940618 - 05/27/10 11:41 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: BSK]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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The "mountains" of most of Eastern KY are very different geologically than what most consider the "mountains" of East TN. With the exception of the very southeastern tip of KY, their eastern mountains (East Kentucky Coal Field Physiographic Region) are erosional features; not mountain-building features. Those east KY mountains are just very highly eroded undeformed sedimentary rock, very similar to what we see at the northern end of the Cumberland Plateau in TN. Undeformed sedimentary rock will weather into much better and more fertile soils than true mountain rock like what makes up the East TN mountains (Smoky Mountain Region). Those mountains are heavily deformed metamorphic rock, which produces very heavy grained and large crystal structure rocks that do not weather to high quality soils. I do agree there is a huge difference in Southern Appalachian mountain geology, like the Smokies, and the Cumberland Mountain geology. But lumping all mountains in one category is misleading IMO. Uhhh, gee Setterman, I believe that was EXACTLY the point I was making. When most people refer to the "moutains" of East TN, they are refering to the Smokey Mountains. The Smokey Mountains are VERY different geologically than the Eastern Kentucky Coal Field region.
You are right in part, but Eastern KY coalfields and TN coal fields are not truly one in the same. Sure they are geologically similar, but you have the TN region and the KY region. With hundreds of miles between areas and much different habitat types many times. The more northerly KY areas are dominated by vast grasslands as a result of mountain top removal, where as the south easterly portions are older reclamation with secondary growths of autumn olive and honey suckle to name a couple. The TN side is similar to the latter, but with much more timber cutting in the zones between reclamation pits. Also, there is not much evidence of mountain top removals on the TN side, i can think of only a couple places which have been whacked across the top. Where in KY there is significant amounts of mountain tops which no longer exists. That in itself changes the make up of each mountain by reducing peak elevation and habitat types.
SO yes in part they are similar, and in part they are different. The most important thing for this discussion is to take the areas which are as similar as possible and compare those to each other. And ultimately what our project is all about.
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