#1938751 - 05/25/10 09:10 PM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: BSK]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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The "mountains" of most of Eastern KY are very different geologically than what most consider the "mountains" of East TN. With the exception of the very southeastern tip of KY, their eastern mountains (East Kentucky Coal Field Physiographic Region) are erosional features; not mountain-building features. Those east KY mountains are just very highly eroded undeformed sedimentary rock, very similar to what we see at the northern end of the Cumberland Plateau in TN. Undeformed sedimentary rock will weather into much better and more fertile soils than true mountain rock like what makes up the East TN mountains (Smoky Mountain Region). Those mountains are heavily deformed metamorphic rock, which produces very heavy grained and large crystal structure rocks that do not weather to high quality soils.
Sorry BSK but you are incorrect. The mountains along the TN and KY border are exactly the same. Both have been and are currently being mined extensively for coal, have the same soil types, same timber types, basically exact carbon copies. In the areas I am working in, many times the properties are only separated by a mile or less. I certainly hope you are not suggesting that the geology varies that significantly a stones throw apart. Because in reality that is factually incorrect.
I do agree there is a huge difference in Southern Appalachian mountain geology, like the Smokies, and the Cumberland Mountain geology.
But lumping all mountains in one category is misleading IMO.
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#1938767 - 05/25/10 09:16 PM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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Setterman, I'm actually glad to hear of your experience on the TN side of the line. That's very encouraging, regardless as to which side of the line might be better a few miles east or west of your study. Perception is not reality . . . . . And that COULD be the case in your comparison if you didn't have a pretty large data set. How many set-ups did you have in each state, and over how many square miles did you have set-ups with cameras? It could simply be mostly happenstance that you stumbled upon a large bachelor group in TN, but weren't that "lucky" in KY?
In my personal sector I am running 20 cameras, 10 on each side covering 2 parcels on each side, each with very similar habitat, terrain etc etc.
There are 5 other guys working on this with me and they have similar sectors.
In all we are covering a good blanket in Claiborne/Scott/Campbell Counties in TN. And a good blanket in Bell/Whitley Cty ky.
Overall we all had similar results last year with regards to more mature bucks on the TN side versus the KY side. The overall herd density is much larger on the TN side as well. With our somewhat limited data (because of time duration) we estimated that densities in TN avg around 25 animals psm, and about 18 on the KY side. The ratios on the TN side were close to 2:1, and KY is running about a 3:1 ratio.
Hopefully over the next few years, we can get some constants and actually put together a complete analysis on what differences lie between KY and TN in these areas.
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#1938771 - 05/25/10 09:18 PM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: tndrbstr]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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In one area which is about 3,000 acres in a block, I routinely captured the same 11 bucks all of which were 3.5 years+ in age, and in addition to those there were countless little guys which showed as well. 2 of those 11, were 150"+, and the others all appeared to be in the 125"-140" range. Good looking deer for their age.
That would be an interesting slide show...why don't you share those with us.... 
I would, but that is not my call. We are being funded by another party, and until the project is completed all information is to remain within affiliated persons possession and not distributed to the public. However, in a few years it will all be available to everyone.
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#1939123 - 05/26/10 08:11 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: Setterman]
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tndrbstr
16 Point
Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 12157
Loc: knox co tn
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IMO-Southeast Ky has by far more big deer than east Tn. I live in Tn and hunt both and there is no question in my mind why Southeast Ky has better quality than Northeast Tn. It is all about the buck limits and how the deer population is controlled. Its gotten better in Tn the past few years but still you can see a big difference in the intensity of the Ky rut compared to Tn. With all due respect, you are wrong. Perception is not reality from the research I have done along the SE KY border compared to the NNE TN side. I would, but that is not my call. We are being funded by another party, and until the project is completed all information is to remain within affiliated persons possession and not distributed to the public. However, in a few years it will all be available to everyone.
Let me get this straight  ...So,...basicly, based on what findings you have found in your research,...but can't openly share with the rest of the public for the next three years... you are going to dispute anyones and everyones personal experiance and opinions as just being plain wrong, if they don't coincide with those said findings that you feel support YOUR perceptive reality?... 
if all information is to remain within the afilliated persons posseission, then why even bring ANY it into these disscussions?... particularly if you are going to obsess with useing it to prop up your opininons against others as them being the only reality, soley based on reasearce that you aren't even allowed expound on? ....
As far as the only true reality of free roaming herd (or flock) dynamics, is that there is no set reality...they will be differant right over here than they are right over there, they will be differant tommorow than than they were a month ago,...of course the reality is, is thats just my opinion.........just sain...with all due respect...
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#1939189 - 05/26/10 09:10 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: Setterman]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 4040
Loc: jackson co.
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IMO-Southeast Ky has by far more big deer than east Tn. I live in Tn and hunt both and there is no question in my mind why Southeast Ky has better quality than Northeast Tn. It is all about the buck limits and how the deer population is controlled. Its gotten better in Tn the past few years but still you can see a big difference in the intensity of the Ky rut compared to Tn. With all due respect, you are wrong. Perception is not reality from the research I have done along the SE KY border compared to the NNE TN side. Everything I have gathered indicates a much larger population of mature bucks on the TN side versus the KY side. Strikingly more in fact. In one area which is about 3,000 acres in a block, I routinely captured the same 11 bucks all of which were 3.5 years+ in age, and in addition to those there were countless little guys which showed as well. 2 of those 11, were 150"+, and the others all appeared to be in the 125"-140" range. Good looking deer for their age. Similar land and similar size, not 3/4 a mile into KY had 1 buck which showed that was 3.5+, and a smattering of younger bucks. Sure there could have been variables which were unaccounted for, but I chose both places because of the vast majority of similarities. Food sources basically equal, secondary growth equal, size equal, human access equal, and terrain was equal. If there was something unique to one or the other, then it was insignificant IMO. I am not say SE KY is void of mature bucks, it just lacks the numbers which inhabit the TN side. with all due respect of course, that is what you have experienced which is not the case for some of us, habitat in my spots in TN and KY are basically equal also and my encounters with 3.5 yos or better are far more often in KY than TN despite the fact that i am in TN afield twice as much since all i have to do is step out the back door i realize that this may not be the case for everyone but most of my friends have also had this kind of success What portion of KY and what portion of TN are you referring to?
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#1939230 - 05/26/10 09:56 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24708
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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Heres the maps... I'm the one that posted them.. One map shows soil and the other are the leading big buck states. They seem to match up... [img]  [/img] [img]  [/img]
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#1939237 - 05/26/10 10:02 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: tndrbstr]
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Good time Charlie
TnDeer Old Timer
12 Point
Registered: 10/08/99
Posts: 6568
Loc: Tazewell
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1 buck limit, is the biggest reason.I live just minutes from ky. and I have seen some bruisers that come from land bordering the cumberland gap park,and others.Lots of wilderness and old reclaimed strip mines.They kill big deer every year.
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#1939286 - 05/26/10 10:44 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: Setterman]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17068
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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In my personal sector I am running 20 cameras, 10 on each side covering 2 parcels on each side, each with very similar habitat, terrain etc etc.
There are 5 other guys working on this with me and they have similar sectors.
Very interesting, and yes, I understand why you cannot tell everything you know, until it's time.
But how many acres (or average distance between) per camera set-up?
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#1939332 - 05/26/10 11:42 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: tndrbstr]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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IMO-Southeast Ky has by far more big deer than east Tn. I live in Tn and hunt both and there is no question in my mind why Southeast Ky has better quality than Northeast Tn. It is all about the buck limits and how the deer population is controlled. Its gotten better in Tn the past few years but still you can see a big difference in the intensity of the Ky rut compared to Tn. With all due respect, you are wrong. Perception is not reality from the research I have done along the SE KY border compared to the NNE TN side. I would, but that is not my call. We are being funded by another party, and until the project is completed all information is to remain within affiliated persons possession and not distributed to the public. However, in a few years it will all be available to everyone. Let me get this straight ...So,...basicly, based on what findings you have found in your research,...but can't openly share with the rest of the public for the next three years... you are going to dispute anyones and everyones personal experiance and opinions as just being plain wrong, if they don't coincide with those said findings that you feel support YOUR perceptive reality?... if all information is to remain within the afilliated persons posseission, then why even bring ANY it into these disscussions?... particularly if you are going to obsess with useing it to prop up your opininons against others as them being the only reality, soley based on reasearce that you aren't even allowed expound on? .... As far as the only true reality of free roaming herd (or flock) dynamics, is that there is no set reality...they will be differant right over here than they are right over there, they will be differant tommorow than than they were a month ago,...of course the reality is, is thats just my opinion.........just sain...with all due respect...
Some things which have been said are wrong, for instance that the Cumberland Mountains and Smokies are the same, and the geologic structure is the same. That is factually incorrect, simple research and knowledge of the area makes that obvious.
So now, that based on concrete proof that there is a larger population of mature bucks WHERE I AM RESEARCHING on the TN side versus the KY side, I am not permitted to call into question what another sees while sitting in a deer stand or experiences during deer season? I think it was BGG who screamed up and down, about deciding the condition of a deer herd using only information gathered while hunting.
To back that up, we are also surveying several tracts in Union and Jefferson County. Amazingly the folks who hunt those tracts bitch about no mature bucks being seen or killed, ever. Well, guess what we found, more then enough mature bucks to make anyone happy. Many times frequenting areas in close proximity to where someone is hunting. However, the hunters never even know they exist.
Sure I will back up my opinions with data what I have found. Keep in mind I am dealing with a specific area which encompasses 3 counties in TN and 2 in KY. So nothing is an absolute statewide. But for the area along the KY border in the Cumberland Mtns, reality is that the mature buck population and deer herd health is as good as anywhere I have ever worked. That is a fact.
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#1939333 - 05/26/10 11:44 AM
Re: E. Tn. deer VS E, Ky deer?
[Re: Good time Charlie]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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1 buck limit, is the biggest reason.I live just minutes from ky. and I have seen some bruisers that come from land bordering the cumberland gap park,and others.Lots of wilderness and old reclaimed strip mines.They kill big deer every year.
Plenty of reclaimed strip mine land on the TN side, and more mature bucks in that vicinity on the TN side then on the KY side. That is one of the areas we are working. I am not saying KY doesn't have some bruisers, but TN has some magnificent animals and more of them.
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