#1928600 - 05/17/10 03:31 PM
Re: World Class Leases in TN
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16937
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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BSK, I certainly agree more than disagree with just about everything you posted, but not totally. 
I think you're underestimating the hunting skills, not so much of those "average" purchasers of a license, but more of those who consistently are the deer killers each year.
According to the "averages", the average "hunter" is only killing a deer about every 3 or 4 years? Yet, within a group of over 50 hunters that I know pretty well, nearly all kill several deer annually.
That sanctuary will draw all bucks pressured by surrounding hunters, including 2 1/2s and the yearlings smart enough to learn hunter avoidance tactics.
But how do those get "smart enough"?
They do so by seeing their larger antlered cohorts get killed.
Again, it's mostly the smaller-antlered young bucks that are "protected", whether by hunters simply not wanting to shoot them, discovering a sanctuary, or both.
Heck, despite my desire to define a "shooter" buck more by age than antlers, I'm guilty myself of being influenced by antlers. And not always because of relatively larger antlers on younger bucks. I've found myself several times not wanting to use my buck tag on a 4 1/2-yr-old buck because he had smaller-than-average antlers.
One final thought:
How many times have we talked about how female deer, including very old does, will simply walk around in daylight with impunity when they're found in a mostly "buck-only" deer hunting environment?
I've found there's a reverse to this.
A 2 1/2-yr-old or older buck that's grown up mainly seeing female deer harvested, under that kind of selective harvest, they're the ones seemingly walking around with impunity. Unfortunately, those 2 1/2's with above average antlers are much less likely to see 3 1/2.
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#1929369 - 05/18/10 07:33 AM
Re: World Class Leases in TN
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I agree with much of what you posted above Wes, but I think you underestimate what could be accomplished with 2,000 acres if the habitat was INTENSIVELY managed. I've seen amazing things done with properties well below that size, when the landowner was willing to do everything possible habitat-wise to attract and hold hunter-wary deer.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1929757 - 05/18/10 12:09 PM
Re: World Class Leases in TN
[Re: BSK]
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BigWes50
10 Point
Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3207
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
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Great posts BSK and WesParrish!
_________________________
Just as the deer can suddenly materialize in the woods, "Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44)
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#1929971 - 05/18/10 04:39 PM
Re: World Class Leases in TN
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16937
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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I agree with much of what you posted above Wes, but I think you underestimate what could be accomplished with 2,000 acres if the habitat was INTENSIVELY managed.
I agree with you, but how many landowners and/or hunters are either willing or able to manage THAT INTENSIVELY?
Of course, if your 2,000 (or less) acres bordered a larger area with essentially no hunting, it would be much easier. Be easier if you were the only person hunting on a large acreage. Not the cases for most of us.
Even the Ames Plantation is not managed THAT INTENSIVELY, as I believe their 120 - 125 antler restrictions are still going to take out most of their best 3 1/2's and the very best top-end 2 1/2's.
My take is that (on about 2,000 acres) ALL male deer would have to be passed until they reach at least 4 1/2 years of age;
- or-
There would have to be almost no hunting, i.e. like President's Island (essentially no "management" at all), to even approach "World Class".
Either essentially no hunting (President's Island),
manage exclusively by age (forget the antlers),
or build a fence (something I hate to see).
Having some idea of what you've accomplished on about 500 acres (and am most favorably impressed), it's still noteworthy that you allow no hunting period prior to November, right? Then essentially no hunting after November? I could live with that, but many TN hunters would not want their gun-hunting days reduced to something comparable to KY's, actually less. Guess my point is that you have significantly limited the hunting on your place, have a wonderful neighbor on one side (large acreage that's hunted even less than your place), and I think you're still seeing significant antler high-grading?
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#1929974 - 05/18/10 04:42 PM
Re: World Class Leases in TN
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16937
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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According to the "averages", the average "hunter" is only killing a deer about every 3 or 4 years? Yet, within a group of over 50 hunters that I know pretty well, nearly all kill several deer annually.
I should add that within that group of over 50 hunters, most of them each pass up several 2 1/2-yr-old bucks annually, yet most will end up taking out either a top-end 2 1/2 or a 3 1/2 annually.
I believe it only takes a small percentage of the hunters to be fairly skilled to have a significant effect on what makes it to the 3 1/2 and older age classes.
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#1930609 - 05/19/10 06:48 AM
Re: World Class Leases in TN
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Bottom Hunter
16 Point
Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 15478
Loc: Hatchie Bottoms
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IMO, two thousand acres is plenty of land to produce whitetails as big as those in illinois, IF done correctly. Maybe not many in the 180 range but quite a few in the 160's.....
The thing is, without fences, any deer can and will roam off any amount of land unless you base your food plots and dense cover on the inner most areas of the property.
if possible........I would concentrate most of my food sources and bedding areas well inside the acreage and any areas that I have bordering other properties would be open fields. Think in terms of insulation through air pockets....a similar situation.
Hopefully during daylight hours the deer would feel uncomfortable crossing these fields to get to other properties and other hunters. Basically the inner 1000 acres would be the sanctuary (for now) and the outer 100 would be the buffer zone.
Now, if i am in charge and I am out to produce big whitetails and I need them to be content on my property and only have two thousand acres to work with, I need two things.......plenty of breeding does and few young bucks to compete for the breeding.
I need for the older mature bucks to have LESS competition to breed , not more. Mature bucks don't fight or roam at all because they want to. You give them plenty of does and even though their paths may cross , they are less likely to fight, IMO. Remember, my goal is to keep these deer on my property, not let some over aggressive buck run some of them into the next county during the rut.
How do i do this? My basic strategy would be to take out as many YOUNG mouths as possible, bucks and does. A 1.5 year old deer and even younger is the desirable kill.
I would set a timeline for harvesting nothing older than 1.5 years old for maybe five years. Then maybe start selective harvesting deer with less than desireable racks at any age for the next five years. I would need some help, of course, to kill out all these young deer, but IMO, young deer eat alot of food and the young bucks do provide unwanted competition for the older bucks in breeding. taking out the younger bucks would be the main priority. I would rather see younger does and not younger bucks. Also, I believe that subpar antlers most often times is a result of poor genes and that buck needs to come out.
Basically, what I'm trying to do is to prevent too many younger bucks from joining the herd and letting what bucks are there get older without too much competition for food and breeding rights.
My way of thinking is this......mature deer travel not because they enjoy it, but because it is a necessity in some situations.
By keeping the herd density LOW, competition is much less and possibly the older bucks will not need to travel.
Again, my goal is NOT overall herd health or "ideal" density numbers, but more about producing mature whitetail bucks.
The question is, how many bucks over 160 inches is a realistic goal on two thousand acres in Tn...?
Under ideal conditions and after five to ten years of work and selective harvesting, I think that five deer over 160 is realistic. not the best numbers , but for Tn. five would be realistic...
Once you are seeing trail cam pics of at least five different bucks over 160, then and only then can you start shooting a few of them. If you wanted to take it a step further, you may want to take out the older mature bucks like the 4.5 to 5.5 year olds that are only about 120-130 inch deer. leave the 160 inch deer for a few more years and maybe they will get up to the 180 inch class...
This type of plan would only work if you can keep from shooting "mountable" deer for this amount of time. You must set a goal for yourself. By using trail cams, and taking out older deer 5.5 or older would be the only way to be sure that you are doing the best thing. Knowing WHEN to take a deer out is crucial.........letting 140-150 inch deer WALK would not be easy, but it is a priority if a 180 is your goal.
there would be a great deal of luck involved in this venture...I'm not too foolish to think that all areas in Tn. are capable of accomplishing this . Genes will play a large factor in this. If you just happen to be lucky enough to be in an area with good genes, then this goal is abit more realistic. If you have never seen a deer over 130 or have a trail camera pic of one or seen one that someone else killed in your area, then maybe this goal would be harder for you in that area.
I guess the best thing to do is to put out enough trail cameras to get a good idea of the genes in your area. 3.5 to 5.5 year old deer with 100 inch racks is not a good thing, IMO.
No matter what you do, you can never replace the benefit of good genes.....
I could go on and on about what i would do if I had my own land and enough ground to work with, but since I don't , well, i can only watch others do what they think is right......
you may totally disagree with my plan, but since no one in this area has attempted this the same way, then i guess there's no way of knowing for sure.....
BH
_________________________
There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict.
Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.
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#1930623 - 05/19/10 07:33 AM
Re: World Class Leases in TN
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I agree with much of what you posted above Wes, but I think you underestimate what could be accomplished with 2,000 acres if the habitat was INTENSIVELY managed.
But that was the point. As Bottom Hunter said, "Give me a couple thousand acres of heavily wooded land in west tn. and five years to 'get it in shape' and you might be surprised what will come off of it...." For me, "getting it in shape" means habitat management.
Even the Ames Plantation is not managed THAT INTENSIVELY...
They can't afford to intensively manage that many acres, and you don't need that many acres.
...as I believe their 120 - 125 antler restrictions are still going to take out most of their best 3 1/2's and the very best top-end 2 1/2's.
A 100 or so bucks taken off 18,000 acres producing high-grading? You under-estimate the buck density in that area. How many 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s were in their harvest?
My take is that (on about 2,000 acres) ALL male deer would have to be passed until they reach at least 4 1/2 years of age;
- or-
There would have to be almost no hunting, i.e. like President's Island (essentially no "management" at all), to even approach "World Class".
By no means do I think you could produce "World Class" in timberland in West TN. However, as Bottom Hunter stated, I think you would be surprised at what could be produced.
Having some idea of what you've accomplished on about 500 acres (and am most favorably impressed)...
I wouldn't use my place as an example. My habitat hasn't been managed intensively enough to produce maximum affect. I also have the benefit of a large nearby refuge.
I would use some of my other clients with land size in the 500-600 acre range as much more appropriate examples. One in Perry County and another in Hickman County come to mind. The results are truly eye-popping. Both ran trail-cameras for several years before management began and now 3-4 years into their programs the difference is shocking. Previous to habitat management they struggled to get 3 1/2 year-old bucks on cam. Now they regularly get 3 1/2, 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 year-old bucks on cam, and have realistic opportunities to take 150 and 160-class bucks each year. World Class? No. Surprising for woodland in TN? Yes.
The drawing power of even a single square mile of intensively managed land is significant. Even if you only assume an effect reaching out a half mile from the border (and it is probably farther than that), a perfectly square square-mile of land (640 acres) is drawing deer from 4 square miles (2,560 acres). And that's why habitat management produces such powerful results on small properties. When utilizing QDM harvest strategies on small properties, you are only influencing the herd structure of a large area. But once you implement intense habitat management, you are drawing deer from that same large area, and if the habitat management is done right, it will have the most drawing power on the animals you are most interested in--hunter-wary old bucks. The habitat management can produce big, BIG differences with stunning results--far more than would be expected for the acreage because you are drawing deer from an area many times larger than the actual managed acreage. Increase the property size to 2,000 acres and at minimum you are drawing deer from at least 5,000 acres. You can grow and pull a bunch of mature bucks from 5,000 acres.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1930985 - 05/19/10 02:58 PM
Re: World Class Leases in TN
[Re: BSK]
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Chaneylake
Brownsville Mafia
16 Point
Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 15291
Loc: on the wings of a snow white d...
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this type management will basically never work in areas of Tn where the land is good production land, trees-crops, the deer are just not that important to the land owner, just as in Chaney property, sure we seem to kill above average deer on the property, this is due to antler restrictions only, the mature hardwood trees on this piece of property are more important than the deer or any other game species
its interesting to discuss the what ifs though
_________________________
"Don't piss down my back and tell me its rain", Fletcher, Outlaw Josey Wales
Living somewhere between this world and the other, Legends of the Fall
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#1931005 - 05/19/10 03:38 PM
Re: World Class Leases in TN
[Re: Chaneylake]
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tndrbstr
16 Point
Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 12157
Loc: knox co tn
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this type management will basically never work in areas of Tn where the land is good production land, trees-crops, the deer are just not that important to the land owner, just as in Chaney property, sure we seem to kill above average deer on the property, this is due to antler restrictions only, the mature hardwood trees on this piece of property are more important than the deer or any other game species
its interesting to discuss the what ifs though
ya I agree, there just deer,....and I am not being facicious either...
If I had access to the same amount of property and wanted a monetary return on my investment I would focus on wing shooting over big game ten to one....Quail, pheasant (pen raised if nessecary), dove and ducks over good dogs. Sell a variety of packages to groups of doctors, lawyers, or big ceo execs on half day, full day, or weekend tax deductable work while you play packages. State of the art conferance facilties....
... thats not counting the big money for the on the side perks that are all under the table...(wouldn't ever be no need to drive to the roadhouse if you know what I mean! )  ...and yes, it could be world class!...
in the words of the west side...TRUE DAT.....
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#1931014 - 05/19/10 03:43 PM
Re: World Class Leases in TN
[Re: Chaneylake]
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AlabamaSwamper
12 Point
Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 5024
Loc: Southern Wayne CO and NW Alaba...
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I've seen enough older bucks on our 1000 acres the last few years (game cams) to know that if I had 18,600 acres of much better habitat that I could have some big bucks as Ames seems to have.
Truth is, most hunters aren't good enough hunters to shoot 3.5+ year old bucks so getting them to 4.5 and 5.5 wouldn't be to hard unless mother nature took them out. How many do you know that do it on a yearly basis? Heck, every 3 years? I feel pretty confident, that on most properties, most hunters can't shoot 2.5 year old bucks consistently. Most of the hunters on our lease can't. If they could, trust me, they would. At least the ones making the minimum.
Not putting hunters down, just stating the facts. One thing I've learned through game cameras is they are there, in much larger numbers than most think and if most hunters could shoot them with ease, there would be a bunch more in the harvest every year.
World Class is also a term only defined by the individual. Unless there is leases (non fenced) in TN that consistently produces 170"+ bucks, then my personal opinion is there is no "world class" leases here. I don't know of any in the southeast except one in Mississippi and one is Arkansas and I don't have the $100,000+ to join those. 
Edited by AlabamaSwamper (05/19/10 03:45 PM)
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