#1869547 - 04/03/10 09:11 AM
First come, first served.........
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Bottom Hunter
16 Point
Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 15554
Loc: Hatchie Bottoms
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Let's get real for a minute and dive right in to the whole concept of limits and regulations.......okay?
Why do organizations like the TWRA set limits and regulations for hunting and fishing? A very simply answer would be that they do so because the average man has no since of responsibility or ethics and hence can't "police" themselves. The TWRA has to do the "policing" for them to insure that future generations will have game to hunt and fish for.
With that being said, does the talk of smaller bag limits and even more regulations for the hunters spark so much controversy because hunters are basically selfish in nature...?
Do deer hunters, in particular, prefer more liberal limits because they don't like people telling them what to do or because they are greedy and selfish? If you as a deer hunter kills the limit every year, would your kill numbers go up if the limit went up , even if you had no personal use for the deer...?
Do many hunters each season kill deer that they neither want or need and many times have to find someone to give the deer to?
It's like going fishing and catching as many fish as you can for the sport of it without even thinking about the fact that someone may indeed come in behind you and have no fish to catch for supper.....
Many times here I read this statement....."If it's legal, I'll kill it."
This does not just mean antler size or sex but if the TWRA says I can legally kill ten deer, then I'll kill ten deer, even if I have to give away five of them, hence have no personal need to take that many.
Many hunters gloat about success and about the number of deer that they kill every year, while others struggle to kill one or two.
Do we as hunters have a responsibility to "leave some for seed" or do we as hunters have the right to kill and kill until we've had our fill of the "thrill"..?
Should we as hunters think less about our own personal numbers and more about the number of hunters that have the chance to kill a deer each season.
Should we think more about "sharing" this resource or do we just need to think that all hunters have the same opportunites that we do and thus if we go out there and kill more than we can use, then it's our right?
Maybe your neighbor doesn't have the vacation time or even the funding to go hunting as much as you but still would like to take a few deer each season for the freezer. By the time they get out there, you've killed most of them and scared the heck out of the rest of them....
I guess I'm asking this question. Would you be willing to lessen your kill numbers to the number of deer that you need for the freezer in order to let your neighbor have some of the same success OR are you more willing to take the attitude of "FIRST COME, FIRST SERVED."
Not dishing anyone here because I've lived both ways.......
just wondering ?
BH
_________________________
There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict.
Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.
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#1869575 - 04/03/10 09:49 AM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Bottom Hunter]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59670
Loc: Nashville, TN
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As for limits, I'm a firm believer in allowing hunters the maximum freedom of harvest that won't harm the resource. Little evidence exists that lower limits "spreads out the harvest" to more hunters. Generally, those that are successful will always be successful, and allowing a higher limit simply allows already successful hunters to be more successful.
Personally, I don't kill more than I can use. The group I hunt with stops killing deer if we have enough in the cooler. But I also believe that what we kill has little impact on our neighbors.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1869584 - 04/03/10 10:00 AM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Bottom Hunter]
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44fanatic
12 Point
Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 6068
Loc: Clarksville, Montgomery Cnty
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IMO, I think you are off base on this one. The average hunter is going to take what they need/want. The exceptional hunter will take far more than what they need, but usually find a good source for that meet to go to. Game laws are there for the violaters and to protect the resource.
As far as current regulations, through the years we have seen them become less restrictive on limits as the populations grow to support healthy populations. I would like to think that hunters of the past hunted for need to support their families in our agriculturally based society. As times have changed and we have become more industrialized and urbanized the need for hunting has gone down.
as for your comment: Many times here I read this statement....."If it's legal, I'll kill it."
I think this pertains to age/sex of the deer and not limits for the most part.
In the future, I see limits going up due to the number of hunters going down. If things become severe enough, a bounty may even be placed on deer to encourage herd reductions or other actions demanding more does be shot before bucks can be shot.
_________________________
Bill
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#1869607 - 04/03/10 10:35 AM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Rowdy]
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Panther78
Team TLBB
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 26250
Loc: Crossville, TN
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Cool.
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The Smiley Postin BANDIT!!
Home of Nanner Nation!
TNDEER Debate Club!
Forgotten Member of TLBB!
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#1869610 - 04/03/10 10:38 AM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Panther78]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24708
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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Very Insightful thought
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The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1869650 - 04/03/10 11:43 AM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Football Hunter]
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BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point
Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6359
Loc: Nashville
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If every hunter killed the limit the agency imposed, we'd have a one deer limit for the entire year.
The good news is, they don't.
_________________________
If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.
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#1869737 - 04/03/10 01:37 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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102
10 Point
Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 3681
Loc: Tennessee
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BH,
I agree with you about the selfish potential that exists. But in my opinion, it is not a matter of being selfish as much as being skilled. At least when it comes to the numbers of deer killed by a particular hunter.
I am always willing to help a hunter in killing. Problem is, I can't pull the release trigger for them. I have long ago lost track of how many hunters I have put in a position to kill deer, or turkey, or dove, only to watch them miss, or spook the animal before getting the shot.
It gets kinda frustrating after a while. And talk about screwing up a good thing. Try taking a "buddy" to a public hunting area, where they can go back once they learn your honey hole, and watch what happens. If it were a lease or private property situation, things might be different. Still, there have been a few GREAT hunts to remember. Ones that hooked guys for life and brought them into "our world" permanently. Those are the ones that make it all worthwhile.
As far as leaving "some for seed"...TRUST ME WHEN I SAY THIS...there may be a whole lot of hunting going on in the deer and turkey woods, but there really ain't that much killin.
102
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.
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#1869742 - 04/03/10 02:03 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59670
Loc: Nashville, TN
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If every hunter killed the limit the agency imposed, we'd have a one deer limit for the entire year.
The good news is, they don't.
BGG,
Any estimate on the percent of the total pre-hunt deer population that hunters actually kill during the season?
Is it over 30%?
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1870121 - 04/03/10 08:22 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: TX300mag]
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Diehard Hunter
12 Point
Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 5370
Loc: East Tennessee
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What your are talking about is called "Tragedy of the commons". without someone taking responsibility for a resource that belongs to all, the resource will be over-exploited, more-so by some than others. In the end, everyone takes the stance that they are entitled to "their" part because the resource belongs to all, and it is someone elses responsibility to take care of it.
Take some time and watch how people treat a common resource, be it a school desk paid for with your tax dollars, a city park picnic area, or anything else "owned" by the people.
To answer your question....While most will say yes they are, in reality, very few will because they have a sense of entitlement since the resource belongs to all. In the end, it is always "first come, first served"!
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One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Aldo Leopold
Don't argue with an idiot He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
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#1870151 - 04/03/10 08:39 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Bottom Hunter]
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Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point
Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 11002
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee
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Should we think more about "sharing" this resource or do we just need to think that all hunters have the same opportunites that we do and thus if we go out there and kill more than we can use, then it's our right?
Maybe your neighbor doesn't have the vacation time or even the funding to go hunting as much as you but still would like to take a few deer each season for the freezer. By the time they get out there, you've killed most of them and scared the heck out of the rest of them....
I guess I'm asking this question. Would you be willing to lessen your kill numbers to the number of deer that you need for the freezer in order to let your neighbor have some of the same success OR are you more willing to take the attitude of "FIRST COME, FIRST SERVED."
What you are proposing is a welfare system for under-skilled hunters. If you make it where every hunter can kill a deer no matter how much time and effort they put into it, what motivation would the under-skilled hunters have to improve their skills?
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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#1870255 - 04/03/10 09:12 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Beekeeper]
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Tree Tramp
8 Point
Registered: 07/22/09
Posts: 1560
Loc: Tennessee
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Another good post BH.
Well i was always taught you where supposed to leave it better than you found it. Part of my hunting, fishing, and outdoor adventures revolve around just that. Deer hunting is no different. Like to see deer hunting in TN be the best she can be and part of that revolves around hunters own personal responsibility and around regulations that help keep us between the ditches. Thankfully TWRA takes massive amounts of information on a statewide scale and comes up with good educated wildlife managment decisions far beyond most hunters understanding. However i know in my heart she can be a better deer state and i want to see it. From myself, fella hunters, and the agency. 
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#1870362 - 04/03/10 11:52 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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RKenney
10 Point
Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 3634
Loc: Maury Co.
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I think the reason most hunters don't reach their 3 buck limit,
is because (nowdays) most hunters don't shoot 3 baby bucks. I
know some do, but not most. If you shot every buck that you saw
that had over 3" of antler over an entire season, how many could
you kill......and would you brag about it?
I know, "they shore do eats good".
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#1870484 - 04/04/10 08:31 AM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: RKenney]
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Mike Belt
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point
Registered: 03/26/99
Posts: 16944
Loc: Lakeland, Tn.
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Leave no tracks....
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BONE HEAD HUNTER
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#1870506 - 04/04/10 08:56 AM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: RKenney]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59670
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I think the reason most hunters don't reach their 3 buck limit,
is because (nowdays) most hunters don't shoot 3 baby bucks.
The problem with that theory is TN deer hunters have always had a fairly low success rate at killing even one buck per year, even before QDM or trophy fever came around.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1870783 - 04/04/10 12:01 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: BSK]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24708
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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I think the reason most hunters don't reach their 3 buck limit,
is because (nowdays) most hunters don't shoot 3 baby bucks. The problem with that theory is TN deer hunters have always had a fairly low success rate at killing even one buck per year, even before QDM or trophy fever came around.
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1870939 - 04/04/10 04:08 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Football Hunter]
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smstone22
16 Point
Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 16325
Loc: Allardt, TN
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Some people just want to take and take from the resource. Without ever giving thought to giving back to the resource and leaving it better than they found it. Deer herds may have well met or exceeded social carrying capacity in some areas of TN but they arent even close to biological or social carrying capacity in many others, like my county. I think to often what hunters want is emplaced over what really needs to be done for the good of the resource. Of course I realize though that many have different definitions of what is "good". Mine is rather conservative and always on the side of conservation and errs on the side of caution. The buck limit and the turkey limit that is emplaced on my county quite frankly disappoints me, and its not because I believe anything is being taken from my harvest because of it, I kill however many I choose to any given year, it just bluntly attacks my conservationist mindset. Anyway, good post BH
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#1871090 - 04/04/10 06:56 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: smstone22]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24708
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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Some people just want to take and take from the resource. Without ever giving thought to giving back to the resource and leaving it better than they found it. Deer herds may have well met or exceeded social carrying capacity in some areas of TN but they arent even close to biological or social carrying capacity in many others, like my county. I think to often what hunters want is emplaced over what really needs to be done for the good of the resource. Of course I realize though that many have different definitions of what is "good". Mine is rather conservative and always on the side of conservation and errs on the side of caution. The buck limit and the turkey limit that is emplaced on my county quite frankly disappoints me, and its not because I believe anything is being taken from my harvest because of it, I kill however many I choose to any given year, it just bluntly attacks my conservationist mindset. Anyway, good post BH
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1871519 - 04/04/10 09:24 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: ]
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RKenney
10 Point
Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 3634
Loc: Maury Co.
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I am illiterate when it comes to text and computer abbreviations.
What does jlt mean? I have seen it several times, but I guess I
missed the boat somewhere along the way, as to what it stands
for.
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#1871652 - 04/04/10 10:03 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Football Hunter]
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RKenney
10 Point
Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 3634
Loc: Maury Co.
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I wonder what the percentages would be, if you took away the
opening weekend and Thanksgiving weekend only hunters. I think
data is often skewed when the total picture is not viewed. When
the stats say most hunters don't kill a buck or only one, this
doesn't take into account the huge number of hunters who might
only hunt opening weekend of rifle season.
My data is not recorded in any graph, except for my 43 years of
deer hunting memories. I know of and have heard of, many of
these weekend ritual hunters.
Selfishly speaking, I am glad they only hunt one or two weekends.
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#1871936 - 04/05/10 07:55 AM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Football Hunter]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59670
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I think the reason most hunters don't reach their 3 buck limit,
is because (nowdays) most hunters don't shoot 3 baby bucks. The problem with that theory is TN deer hunters have always had a fairly low success rate at killing even one buck per year, even before QDM or trophy fever came around. Wonder why that is?Lack of deer?Seems hard to beleive to me,most years I could easily limit out before juvy if I so chose to.
That's always been a big question, but is typical for most states. I suspect it is due to a large number of hunters that don't put in much effort. They are just opening weekend hunters hunting more to be out with their buddies than anything else.
If I remember correctly--and BGG correct me if I'm wrong--the UT surveys found the median number of days a TN deer hunter hunts is only around 12-14 days during the entire deer season. That means half the deer hunters in TN hunt fewer days than that, and I'm sure for a large group it will only be 3 or 4 days. Add that low number of hunting days to a bunch of hunters without good places to hunt, and a large number of hunters that don't know much about choosing good stand locations, and you end up with a very low success rate.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1871941 - 04/05/10 07:59 AM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: RKenney]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59670
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I wonder what the percentages would be, if you took away the
opening weekend and Thanksgiving weekend only hunters.
Those are the majority of hunters that don't kill a buck in a given year. And there are a large number of them.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1874548 - 04/06/10 05:01 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Football Hunter]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 4040
Loc: jackson co.
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I think the reason most hunters don't reach their 3 buck limit,
is because (nowdays) most hunters don't shoot 3 baby bucks. The problem with that theory is TN deer hunters have always had a fairly low success rate at killing even one buck per year, even before QDM or trophy fever came around. Wonder why that is?Lack of deer?Seems hard to beleive to me,most years I could easily limit out before juvy if I so chose to.
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#1874825 - 04/06/10 08:14 PM
Re: First come, first served.........
[Re: Bottom Hunter]
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Dr2kill
TnDeer Old Timer
10 Point
Registered: 01/20/00
Posts: 3817
Loc: Andersonville, TN
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I only kill what I need to fill up my freezer. This past year I took 2 heavy bodied deer out of the gene pool and gave one of them to my brother-in-law.. I could have kept hunting but I didn't see the need since I had enough meat in the freezer to make it till this fall...
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Never give in
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