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#1828003 - 03/08/10 11:24 AM Re: Something kind of interesting............ [Re: gator-n-buck]
Setterman
8 Point


Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN

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I agree, but that is in terms of maximum antler size and not in terms of age structure. I think what Deer bio is eluding to is that more bucks will reach an age where they can achieve max. potential with 1 buck limits.
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#1828039 - 03/08/10 11:55 AM Re: Something kind of interesting............ [Re: gator-n-buck]
Deer Bio
Spike


Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 52
Loc: United states

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 Originally Posted By: gator-n-buck
 Originally Posted By: Setterman
 Originally Posted By: Deer Bio
A couple things. Remember, this is the alltime BC list. If you did a list from just the last 20 years, the last 10 years, the last 5 years, it would be different. Ind, who has never been in the top 10, would probably be in the top 5 in the last 5 years, since going to a 1 buck limit.
And there are states like Ill that have a 2 buck limit, but they dont have any gun season during the rut. There are lots of ways to protect your buck herd besides just the 1 buck limit.


Very interesting again. If IN went to a 1 buck limit, and then moved into the top 5, then there really is no disputing the impacts that reg change can have on the buck age structure. I guess it all comes down to what the desires of the managing agencies goals are and how those correlate with the license holders of that state.


It appears that IN might already have a few other factors in place by looking at its surrounding states (soil and genetics). You can make a Yugo a little faster but it will never out run a Ferrari......JMO


I think that proves my contention all along. Ind has everything it takes to make big deer, just like Ill, Iowa, etc. But they havent. I believe its BSK on here who says a monkey could manage a midwestern state. But for some reason that monkey running Ind has never produced the deer its neighbors do. Ind wasnt even in the top 10. UNTIL going to a 1 buck limit 8 years ago. They have gone from not being in the top 10, to probably top 5 in the last few years.
Like setterman said, my contention is that the 1 buck limit increased the age structure. You can look up Ind data, they have no doubt increased their age structure since going to a 1 buck limit. A better age structure, means larger deer.
I am not sure how anyone can argue with Indianas results. Those that truely have an open mind, should really take a look at Indianas results, its very telling in my opinion.

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#1828041 - 03/08/10 11:56 AM Re: Something kind of interesting............ [Re: gator-n-buck]
mathews338
10 Point


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3985
Loc: jackson co.

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 Originally Posted By: gator-n-buck
 Originally Posted By: Setterman
 Originally Posted By: Deer Bio
A couple things. Remember, this is the alltime BC list. If you did a list from just the last 20 years, the last 10 years, the last 5 years, it would be different. Ind, who has never been in the top 10, would probably be in the top 5 in the last 5 years, since going to a 1 buck limit.
And there are states like Ill that have a 2 buck limit, but they dont have any gun season during the rut. There are lots of ways to protect your buck herd besides just the 1 buck limit.


Very interesting again. If IN went to a 1 buck limit, and then moved into the top 5, then there really is no disputing the impacts that reg change can have on the buck age structure. I guess it all comes down to what the desires of the managing agencies goals are and how those correlate with the license holders of that state.


It appears that IN might already have a few other factors in place by looking at its surrounding states (soil and genetics). You can make a Yugo a little faster but it will never out run a Ferrari......JMO
JMO but it seems like some want to only look at the facts they choose to

yes soil and genetics play a role but age and limits and mindset of the hunters which is a directly related to limits and how long they get to hunt with each weapon and firearms during rut

how big of a difference would it make here if you only had a few days of rifle that did not take place during rut or had a one or two buck limit not saying i want them but you have to be rational and realize that there is way more to it than what most argue about on here

the truth is that we can not compare TN to any other state because we are not like any other state and may not ever be in terms of limits and seasons so until we are it is all just opinions and you will never be able to present all the facts, how would you even begin to figure how the mindset of hunters change when the limits change, you can't unless you try it first

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#1828055 - 03/08/10 12:13 PM Re: Something kind of interesting............ [Re: mathews338]
BigWes50
10 Point


Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3207
Loc: Chattanooga, TN

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 Originally Posted By: mathews338
 Originally Posted By: gator-n-buck
 Originally Posted By: Setterman
 Originally Posted By: Deer Bio
A couple things. Remember, this is the alltime BC list. If you did a list from just the last 20 years, the last 10 years, the last 5 years, it would be different. Ind, who has never been in the top 10, would probably be in the top 5 in the last 5 years, since going to a 1 buck limit.
And there are states like Ill that have a 2 buck limit, but they dont have any gun season during the rut. There are lots of ways to protect your buck herd besides just the 1 buck limit.


Very interesting again. If IN went to a 1 buck limit, and then moved into the top 5, then there really is no disputing the impacts that reg change can have on the buck age structure. I guess it all comes down to what the desires of the managing agencies goals are and how those correlate with the license holders of that state.


It appears that IN might already have a few other factors in place by looking at its surrounding states (soil and genetics). You can make a Yugo a little faster but it will never out run a Ferrari......JMO
JMO but it seems like some want to only look at the facts they choose to

yes soil and genetics play a role but age and limits and mindset of the hunters which is a directly related to limits and how long they get to hunt with each weapon and firearms during rut

how big of a difference would it make here if you only had a few days of rifle that did not take place during rut or had a one or two buck limit not saying i want them but you have to be rational and realize that there is way more to it than what most argue about on here

the truth is that we can not compare TN to any other state because we are not like any other state and may not ever be in terms of limits and seasons so until we are it is all just opinions and you will never be able to present all the facts, how would you even begin to figure how the mindset of hunters change when the limits change, you can't unless you try it first



Spot on!
_________________________
Just as the deer can suddenly materialize in the woods, "Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44)

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#1828415 - 03/08/10 05:06 PM Re: Something kind of interesting............ [Re: gator-n-buck]
gator-n-buck
16 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL

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 Originally Posted By: gator-n-buck
[img][/img]


I would like to have a map of the ccunties that the BC entries were killed in. I think it would be interesting to see considering the top 5, out of 6 states (except TX) makes one big triangle. It seems like several states that border these top 5 have several entries. It would be neat to see if the counties in KY that border IL and OH have higher entries. I know you can kill a freak in any county but I'm talking about where do the majority of the BC bucks come from. I think soil and genetics play a bigger factor than buck limits. Just because theres a states line doesn't mean that some of those states don't share the same soil. It looks like the S.E. is a whole different ball game and TN just falls below that line.....JMO.

P.S. I'm not buying into that buck limits from three to one will make that big of a difference in TN. Several of those top ten states have a two buck limit and had entries in the record bucks way before these states went to stricter regs,.....JMO

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#1828443 - 03/08/10 05:40 PM Re: Something kind of interesting............ [Re: gator-n-buck]
mathews338
10 Point


Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3985
Loc: jackson co.

Offline
gator-n-buck soil is a factor but like you said the soil does not just stop at the state line so looks like alot of KY soil would dip into alot of TN making TN soil not that much different and if you look at the more detailed maps from other posts then you would see that all of EKY is alot worse than any of TN i think that if you avg. the two states soil then there is not much difference and those other states all have regs. that aid the deer to reach maturity

short firearms
shotgun ML only
bow only during peak rut
1 or 2 buck limits

and the biggest of all could be that the majority of the hunters in those states have the mindset to let them go til they reach maturity what i'm saying is that if you are surrounded by guys who let them walk the more likely you will peer pressure so to speak JMO that soil is only part of the battle

not saying that TN would start producing the amount of b&c as other states but P&Y entries would climb IMO

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#1828801 - 03/08/10 08:26 PM Re: Something kind of interesting............ [Re: Deer Bio]
Bigg'un4214
8 Point


Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 2394
Loc: east tn

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A better age structure, means larger deer. [/quote]

If this is the case then TN should be comparable to KY in antler size. Based on what I have saw on here the age structures of harvested deer are comparable.
_________________________
Tennessee roots over 200 years deep and growing.....

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#1828871 - 03/08/10 09:11 PM Re: Something kind of interesting............ [Re: mathews338]
Yodel Dog
8 Point


Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1087
Loc: Mid Tn

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 Originally Posted By: mathews338
...how would you even begin to figure how the mindset of hunters change when the limits change, you can't unless you try it first


I'm in! \:\)
_________________________
"...Shooting a deer is like shooting a cow..." Phil Robertson

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#1828884 - 03/08/10 09:18 PM Re: Something kind of interesting............ [Re: gator-n-buck]
Deer Bio
Spike


Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 52
Loc: United states

Offline
 Originally Posted By: gator-n-buck
 Originally Posted By: gator-n-buck
[img][/img]


I think soil and genetics play a bigger factor than buck limits. Just because theres a states line doesn't mean that some of those states don't share the same soil. It looks like the S.E. is a whole different ball game and TN just falls below that line.....JMO.

P.S. I'm not buying into that buck limits from three to one will make that big of a difference in TN. Several of those top ten states have a two buck limit and had entries in the record bucks way before these states went to stricter regs,.....JMO


I heard a biologist from Wisc speak onetime some years ago. He made the statement, if you dont think buck limits make a difference, then look at a BC map, and pay special attention to the Wisc-Michigan state line. He went on to say, that Wisc was the #1 BC producer of all-time, but that one quick look of a BC map showed a distinct difference between the Wisc-Mich state line, and it wasnt a coincidence.
Its not the only state line that sure provides a stark difference. I am not sure how people can explain that away.
Also, yes there are some states like Ill with a two buck limit on the BC list. But they have a short shotgun season after the rut. Lots of ways to protect you age structure.

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#1828903 - 03/08/10 09:25 PM Re: Something kind of interesting............ [Re: Deer Bio]
gator-n-buck
16 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL

Offline
 Originally Posted By: Deer Bio
 Originally Posted By: gator-n-buck
 Originally Posted By: gator-n-buck
[img][/img]


I think soil and genetics play a bigger factor than buck limits. Just because theres a states line doesn't mean that some of those states don't share the same soil. It looks like the S.E. is a whole different ball game and TN just falls below that line.....JMO.

P.S. I'm not buying into that buck limits from three to one will make that big of a difference in TN. Several of those top ten states have a two buck limit and had entries in the record bucks way before these states went to stricter regs,.....JMO


I heard a biologist from Wisc speak onetime some years ago. He made the statement, if you dont think buck limits make a difference, then look at a BC map, and pay special attention to the Wisc-Michigan state line. He went on to say, that Wisc was the #1 BC producer of all-time, but that one quick look of a BC map showed a distinct difference between the Wisc-Mich state line, and it wasnt a coincidence.
Its not the only state line that sure provides a stark difference. I am not sure how people can explain that away.
Also, yes there are some states like Ill with a two buck limit on the BC list. But they have a short shotgun season after the rut. Lots of ways to protect you age structure.


I realize the buck limit guys want to push the issue, that if we change the limits, we will be like KY. The only problem with that is I found the first soil map that I came to and added the map that I colored in for the top BC states. Neither one was posted to be put together but they match pretty good. The BC states run right with the soil states on these maps that I put together.... Interesting, TN and E. KY pretty much stink on the soil map except for the KY counties that border the Ohio river...

P.S. I have found that a lot of the monster bucks that are killed in KY are along the Ohio river or S. IL.....


Edited by gator-n-buck (03/08/10 09:30 PM)

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