#1824772 - 03/05/10 11:16 PM
Re: TN vs. KY DIRT FACTS
[Re: Beekeeper]
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BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point
Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6353
Loc: Nashville
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What happens on top of the soil is way more important than the soil itself.
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If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.
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#1824773 - 03/05/10 11:18 PM
Re: TN vs. KY DIRT FACTS
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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Yodel Dog
8 Point
Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1087
Loc: Mid Tn
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What happens on top of the soil is way more important than the soil itself.
BGG, best post you've ever made! 
Edited by Yodel Dog (03/05/10 11:19 PM)
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"...Shooting a deer is like shooting a cow..." Phil Robertson
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#1824791 - 03/06/10 12:27 AM
Re: TN vs. KY DIRT FACTS
[Re: budro2]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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take the average hunter from Tn & Ky & have them age a few deer from both states,see what the outcome is,mike243 I would love to see a large-scale study like was conducted in MS, where 10,000 bucks were aged and antlers scored. However, I realize I'm dreaming. What state has the kind of money necessary to conduct such a study? MS was lucky in having so much data available from their landowner management programs. I would also like to see a blind study done regarding age structure. I read the study to where TN was harvesting older age class deer than KY, OH or IL and I thought it was pure BS. I have not seen a deer aged in TN in years, except at WMA's. So I doubt , seriouly doubt that TN is harvesting more 3.5 yr olds than these other states. By the way, same deal in KY and Il----how to you age a deer that is telechecked????????????????????
Well.... The last two years I have had two bucks aged by TWRA when I pulled into Adams to check them in... Both bucks were 3.5 yrs old.... I have also seen TWRA age deer at all the WMAs when deer are checked in.... BGG if you ever come East, I would love to help no matter what time it is...
Edited by gator-n-buck (03/06/10 12:36 AM)
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#1825137 - 03/06/10 10:03 AM
Re: TN vs. KY DIRT FACTS
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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landman
8 Point
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 1439
Loc: TN & Western KY
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BBG- your Right and Wrong on your answer
that works both ways on the soil, if you put enough on top of the soil, it works it way into the soil to make it better under the top........ Thats why they tell you it takes a year or more for you lime to really work. Your kinda right, but your wrong to, for example, river bottom ground, the fertile soils of KY, IL,IN, etc even some of TN, don't need as much on top to help it, I can still remember all that from getting my degree in Agriculture, and first hand working with the dirt, like some of the other guys on here.
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#1825143 - 03/06/10 10:10 AM
Re: TN vs. KY DIRT FACTS
[Re: budro2]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I'm very confused by some of the numbers being presented here. I've downloaded all of the USDA data and calculated it for myself and the argument actually goes against there being little difference between KY and TN.
KY is a smaller state than TN to the tune of over a million acres, yet KY regularly reports more than a million more acres of agricultural production. Looking from year to year, KY regularly reports 25% higher agricultural acres as a percent of total acres of land than TN. In 2008, KY had more than TWICE the acreage of corn (105.8%) and 10% more acreage of soybeans than TN. Crop yields--a direct measure of soil fertility--consistantly runs 17-20% higher per acre in KY than TN for both corn and soybeans.
The fact KY has more agriculture, produces more of the most important crops for deer nutrition, and has higher quality soils (higher crop yields per acre) is obvious. I don't understand the argument?
Oh... yes I do... The trophyists are twisting the facts again....
Typical...
TENNESSEE CORN YIELDS 2009 Corn for grain production is estimated at 87.3 million bushels, up 17 percent from 2008. The final yield, at 148 bushels per acre, 148 BU AV, 87.3 MILLION BUSHELS KY CORN YIELD FOR 09 Corn For Grain Total For Crop 2009 Kentucky State Total 99 1,220,000 acres 1,150,000 acres 165 bushel 189,750,000 bushel 165 BU AVERAGE 189 MILL BUSHELS TN SOYBEAN YIELD 2009 Soybean production is estimated at 68.9 million bushels, up 39 percent from the year earlier and the highest since 1979. The State’s final soybean yield is estimated at 45 bushels per acre.. Producers planted 1,570,000 acres and harvested 1,530,000 acres for beans. 45 BU AC/ 68.9 MILLION BUSHELS KY YEILD FOR BEANS Soybeans Total For Crop 2009 Kentucky State Total 99 1,430,000 acres 1,420,000 acres 48 bushel 68,160,000 bushel 48 BU AC, 68.16 MILLION BUSHELS APPEARS YOU CALCULATOR WAS MIXED UP, A 3 BU INCREASE IN SOYBEANS IS NOT A 17-20% INCREASE IN YIELDS AS YOU SUGGESTED. Talk about twisting facts!
You're looking at state estimates. Go back to the last actual measured year by county statistics.
KY County average corn yield per acre: 89.4 bu/acre
TN County average corn yield per acre: 75.6 bu/acre
That's an 18.25% difference.
KY County average soybean yield per acre: 25.4 bu/acre
TN County average soybean yield per acre: 21.7 bu/acre
That's a 17.14% difference.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1825146 - 03/06/10 10:13 AM
Re: TN vs. KY DIRT FACTS
[Re: budro2]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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your statement is very disappointing, if I said the same thing about you, I would be booted from the forum. Yesiree, you're 100% correct. Take it from someone that knows firsthand. If it is the post I remember you attacked the integrity of the TWRA not their knowledge. I have a question for you and budro2. Just how much do you know about constructing a statistical model and how to interpret the data derived from it? you are always wanting to ask questions, why dont you provide some answers, and show your "lack of ignorance" . What do you know about these soils on my property and why has this farm produced several 160 plus bucks in the last 7 years? Soil Code Soil Series Name Soil Info – Percent slope Erosion potential Area % BnF2 Berks-Brownsville very rocky, 30 to 55% slope eroded 63 BvF2 Brownsville-Berks 30 to 60% slope eroded 30 Sx Skidmore gravelly silt loam 0 to 5% slope occasional flooding 4 SkF2 Shelocta silt loam 20 to 45% slope eroded
So you can copy and paste information out of a soil database. Again, what do you know about statistical modeling?
How do you know the soil on your farm produced those bucks? Deer, and especially bucks can travel far and wide during their lifetime. Where we they born? What were they eating at that time? Did they disperse from their birth range and how far did they travel? What are they eating during the summer versus where are they during hunting season? How far are they traveling during the rut?
My property has TERRIBLE soil, yet we have killed a few whoppers. However, the local terrible soil probably didn't produce those antlers. Soils and habitat miles away may have produced what was necessary to grow those antlers as those bucks were born, dispersed and moved around seasonally and annually during their lifetimes.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1825158 - 03/06/10 10:19 AM
Re: TN vs. KY DIRT FACTS
[Re: BSK]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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BGG,
You can lead a horse to water, but you can make them drink.
Ignorance abounds and when ignorance doesn't want to change because it would shatter desparately-guarded and much beloved beliefs, what can you do about it but shrug and move on?
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1825196 - 03/06/10 10:51 AM
Re: TN vs. KY DIRT FACTS
[Re: landman]
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Quailman
8 Point
Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 1329
Loc: Winchester, TN
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BBG- your Right and Wrong on your answer
Actually landman, BGG is right with the comment he made about what is "on top of soil is more important than the soil itself." I believe what he is referring to is what is growing on top of the soil is what really matters. It doesn't matter if you have the "greatest soil" in the world and you apply adequate amounts of lime and fertilizer IF it is covered in fescue or mature hardwood forests (as is common in Tennessee). The quality and quantity of available nutrition will be very low.
I'm not going to once again debate the soils theory on this forum. I'll leave it up to the actual experts - soil scientists and animal nutrition specialists - to provide factual information. Everyone else is just providing opinions. 
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Why work when you can hunt?
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#1827473 - 03/07/10 09:35 PM
Re: TN vs. KY DIRT FACTS
[Re: BSK]
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budro2
Spike
Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 74
Loc: tn,perry
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your statement is very disappointing, if I said the same thing about you, I would be booted from the forum. Yesiree, you're 100% correct. Take it from someone that knows firsthand. If it is the post I remember you attacked the integrity of the TWRA not their knowledge. I have a question for you and budro2. Just how much do you know about constructing a statistical model and how to interpret the data derived from it? you are always wanting to ask questions, why dont you provide some answers, and show your "lack of ignorance" . What do you know about these soils on my property and why has this farm produced several 160 plus bucks in the last 7 years? Soil Code Soil Series Name Soil Info – Percent slope Erosion potential Area % BnF2 Berks-Brownsville very rocky, 30 to 55% slope eroded 63 BvF2 Brownsville-Berks 30 to 60% slope eroded 30 Sx Skidmore gravelly silt loam 0 to 5% slope occasional flooding 4 SkF2 Shelocta silt loam 20 to 45% slope eroded So you can copy and paste information out of a soil database. Again, what do you know about statistical modeling? How do you know the soil on your farm produced those bucks? Deer, and especially bucks can travel far and wide during their lifetime. Where we they born? What were they eating at that time? Did they disperse from their birth range and how far did they travel? What are they eating during the summer versus where are they during hunting season? How far are they traveling during the rut? My property has TERRIBLE soil, yet we have killed a few whoppers. However, the local terrible soil probably didn't produce those antlers. Soils and habitat miles away may have produced what was necessary to grow those antlers as those bucks were born, dispersed and moved around seasonally and annually during their lifetimes.
You are right, the SOIL did not produce those bucks, AGE Did. And this is a semi wilderness situation, where the closest agriculture is 3 miles, and it is pasture, with a few small corn patches. there are no soybeans.
You have already showed you lack of knowledge regarding soils and TN/KY yields. I did not copy and paste anything from a soil data base.
These soils are the predominate soil on this tract of timberland that I own, I have a comprehensive and detailed timber management plan, which give species composition, soil types, volume of timber and metric tons of carbon sequestered per year.
Since it is evident you do not know what these soils are or represent
They are very poor, with a sandstone base. the site index is very low for this parcel.
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#1827477 - 03/07/10 09:37 PM
Re: TN vs. KY DIRT FACTS
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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budro2
Spike
Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 74
Loc: tn,perry
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What happens on top of the soil is way more important than the soil itself.
I agree with you " cant believe i said that" LOL
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