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#1816720 - 03/01/10 07:58 PM ANOTHER acreage thread II
JCDEERMAN
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Registered: 07/19/08
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I didnt want to take over BH's thread, but wanted to know others opinions on this topic....

All of you that have done some type of timber harvest on a property whether it be to improve the deer herd or create more cover, or for money or etc, how much of a difference did the deer patterns change? This is the first time that we have done this. We are cutting roughly 70 acres on our 400 acres that we own in patches....other than 5 acres we did last year. I have 10 years of knowledge on this property, but I am expecting alot of things to change this coming season.

How much did their patterns change the first year after the cut?

Or did you see deer change their travels 2 years later, 3 years?

OR did they not change much at all?

What did you have to change as a hunter?
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#1816925 - 03/01/10 08:54 PM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: JCDEERMAN]
whistlinwingman
8 Point


Registered: 07/11/05
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On dad's place the patterns did't change a whole lot. The cut's provided a lot of browse for the deer and the deer seemed comfortably cruising through cut areas. However as time went on the maple saplings filled in it's all pretty thick now. We should of burned it after about 5 years to regenerate some Oak growth but things are good there. The thicker ridges seem to keep more deer in or on them for much of the day as they act as thickets and possibly thermal cover. So, IMO I'd say look for the changes (if any) to come in 2-3 years. That's just my one time experience. I'm sure others can offer alot more.
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#1816936 - 03/01/10 08:59 PM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: JCDEERMAN]
Lincoln Co Archer
8 Point


Registered: 09/13/08
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Loc: Murfreesboro, TN

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We logged the family farm 6 years ago. Took everything that was ready even pulp wood. This was roughly seventy acres of hardwoods. The first year was really rough trying to figure the deer again because so many things had changed.

Second and third years were alright we killed two 120 in.eight points. But the fourth and fifth years were amazing. The cover was perfect and we had pinned down all the key buck routes and staging areas. Saw tons of bucks from buttons to giants.

The key is not to get frustrated in the first year or two becasue you ae going to have some trial and error involved.
This is also the perfect time to really set your place up as far logging roads and food plots. Keep the roads clean and clear out the tops from the trees left behind to make some nice plots and tree groves.
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#1817102 - 03/01/10 09:59 PM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: Lincoln Co Archer]
Setterman
8 Point


Registered: 12/31/09
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Patterns changed a ton the first year, but every cut I have been involved with over the last 10 years was very carefully laid out to leave perfect travel corridors of mature trees etc. After that the patterns became very consistent with deer entering and exiting regenerating forests in very specific areas, which were also planned most of the time, sometimes though they choose places which are not planned for, and impossible to predict.
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#1817296 - 03/02/10 06:40 AM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: Setterman]
BSK
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The logging changed patterns dramatically the first year (deer avoiding the heaviest cut ares). But as new growth took over the plots in the 2nd and 3rd year deer used the heaviest cut areas like natural food plots. By the 4th year the cut areas had grown to impenetrable jungles and they became THE KEY part of travel patterns (bedding cover).

But a lot will depend on how heavily the areas are cut and how large the areas are. Minor thinnings and very large cut areas will probably change deer patterns little (in a decernable fashion). The heavier the area is cut and the smaller the cut area the more difference it makes.

_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1817300 - 03/02/10 06:44 AM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: Lincoln Co Archer]
JCDEERMAN
14 Point


Registered: 07/19/08
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Great info guys!

I am expecting to be in my climber a whole lot this year...The biggest thing right now is deciphering where to put lock-ons and ladder stands around and on the edge of these cuts that are in progress. Yes, they were all designed around travel corridors, but I am expecting things to change.

 Originally Posted By: Lincoln Co Archer
The first year was really rough trying to figure the deer again because so many things had changed.

Second and third years were alright we killed two 120 in.eight points. But the fourth and fifth years were amazing. The cover was perfect and we had pinned down all the key buck routes and staging areas. Saw tons of bucks from buttons to giants.

The key is not to get frustrated in the first year or two becasue you ae going to have some trial and error involved.
This is also the perfect time to really set your place up as far logging roads and food plots. Keep the roads clean and clear out the tops from the trees left behind to make some nice plots and tree groves.


Exactly what I was wanting to hear! Thanks

I am really loking forward to see how this all pans out
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

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#1817677 - 03/02/10 10:46 AM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: JCDEERMAN]
Bottom Hunter
16 Point


Registered: 12/29/06
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I was fortunate enough to grow up hunting large spans of river bottoms. Areas with large acreages dominated my heavy canopy.

I walked many miles in areas where it was hard to find even a blade of grass or a weed. The mature oaks and cypress produced a canopy that basically choked out anything on the ground floor.

The only food in these areas was mass crop. Most of these ares were used as trail corridors , expecially when the mass crop was poor.

Couple that with the lack of cover for the deer and during the low mass crop years, these areas were poor habitat for deer.

Most of these areas are select cut and not clear cut. Most large tracts of timber ARE select cut. Usually ONLY smaller tracts of timber like woodslots are ever clear cut around here.

IMO, select cutting timber will not hurt deer movement in an area at all. If anything it will HELP it.

Most loggers around here do not clean up the timber, meaning they do not remove the tops or anything that they do not want. This INSTANTLY provides food and cover for deer. These areas become magnets very quickly.

Mature tracts of timber that possess barren dirt floors with no food or cover at all , suddenly provide food and cover for wildlife.....this food is not based on mass crop only but foliage as well.

I have hunted within eye sight of loggers and watched deer pay them little mind. Many loggers will tell you that deer even come out in the open while they are working and basically act the same way that they do around farmers and their equipment....

IMO, select cutting is the best thing someone could do to help wildlife in their area.

I also believe that you can be successful hunting deer very quickly around logging sites. Not only do deer come to these sites to feed on treetops, they also feed off the green vegetation that seems to sprout almost within a few days after the much needed sunshine touches the woods' floor.

Logging roads and areas where the timber is stored before being transported out will be prime areas for vegetation to start sprouting.....

Since deer love EDGES, these areas also prvide that.....

IMO, if the loggers leave out before the season begins, then hunt it that season. If they are there some during the season, but leave out before the end, then hunt it then...and maybe even go in there on days when the loggers aren't there...like rainy days or sundays.....

Also, remember to expect the unexpected.....deer are individuals too.

I would......

JMO

BH


Edited by Bottom Hunter (03/02/10 10:50 AM)
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#1817800 - 03/02/10 11:50 AM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: Bottom Hunter]
Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
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Good info, nothing beats a newly regenerating cut, it provides food and cover and the deer will use the hound out of it!
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#1818876 - 03/02/10 09:12 PM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: BSK]
JCDEERMAN
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Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 7636
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
But a lot will depend on how heavily the areas are cut and how large the areas are. Minor thinnings and very large cut areas will probably change deer patterns little (in a decernable fashion). The heavier the area is cut and the smaller the cut area the more difference it makes.


It is being cut to 12" DBA...I assume that will make it pretty dang thick? I was talking to the logger and he said that the 1st year will suprise you...he said you can see every step a deer takes on the side of a ridge...and that the deer feel like they have plenty of cover around. He said it will look wide open, but if you get down and go over there, it looks like alot of cover. - Which explains why they would feel safe in there

....I know that this is all depends on the amount of rainfall over the spring and summer. I am hoping for plenty! I cannot tell you how excited I am about this coming year....and what sounds like the next several years! \:\) .....1) ESPECIALLY the fact that our borders were clearcut about 8 years ago and have been getting thinner and thinner every year and 2) The 600 acres of pines that also borders us are getting about 15 ft tall and losing its cover as well.....I think this timing of our cuts should be about right. The thousands of acres (literally - at least 5,000 acres) that borders us that are clearcut and pines have killed us the last 8 or so years
_________________________
Be nervous, but fear no one

In God we trust

God bless the USA!

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#1819451 - 03/03/10 07:40 AM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: JCDEERMAN]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: JCDEERMAN
 Originally Posted By: BSK
But a lot will depend on how heavily the areas are cut and how large the areas are. Minor thinnings and very large cut areas will probably change deer patterns little (in a decernable fashion). The heavier the area is cut and the smaller the cut area the more difference it makes.


It is being cut to 12" DBA...I assume that will make it pretty dang thick?


That will depend on the percent of trees that are removed (what percent were over 12" DBH).


 Quote:
I was talking to the logger and he said that the 1st year will suprise you...he said you can see every step a deer takes on the side of a ridge...and that the deer feel like they have plenty of cover around. He said it will look wide open, but if you get down and go over there, it looks like alot of cover. - Which explains why they would feel safe in there

....I know that this is all depends on the amount of rainfall over the spring and summer. I am hoping for plenty!



Again, it depends on the percent of trees removed and the size of the area timbered. I find deer tend to avoid heavily cut areas the first year after cutting (but a minor thinning might not bother them as much). And the larger the area cut, the less patternable any changes in deer movement will be.


 Quote:
I cannot tell you how excited I am about this coming year....and what sounds like the next several years! \:\) .....1) ESPECIALLY the fact that our borders were clearcut about 8 years ago and have been getting thinner and thinner every year and 2) The 600 acres of pines that also borders us are getting about 15 ft tall and losing its cover as well.....I think this timing of our cuts should be about right. The thousands of acres (literally - at least 5,000 acres) that borders us that are clearcut and pines have killed us the last 8 or so years


Having the best cover around is DEFINITELY the way to draw mature bucks to your property during hunting season. Having cover arranged well is the key to making those mature bucks harvestable.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1819482 - 03/03/10 07:55 AM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: BSK]
Bottom Hunter
16 Point


Registered: 12/29/06
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I have found that during really cold weather, deer will seek out clearcuts that were not cleaned up for this reason....The tops and newly grown grasses provide food and shelter from the wind but the lack of canopy will allow the sun to hit their back.....Much like a sage grass field....

I guess that all things have their good and bad sides...

BH
_________________________
There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict.

Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.

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#1819498 - 03/03/10 08:08 AM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: Bottom Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: Bottom Hunter
I have found that during really cold weather, deer will seek out clearcuts that were not cleaned up for this reason....The tops and newly grown grasses provide food and shelter from the wind but the lack of canopy will allow the sun to hit their back.....Much like a sage grass field....

I guess that all things have their good and bad sides...

BH


Deer will definitely bed in downed treetops, especially those cut in summer that still have dead leaves attached. That is the one caveat to deer avoiding newly cut areas. If that is the best cover available deer will definitely bed in newly cut tops. Bu if better security cover exists, they will generally avoid newly cut areas. Of course, much depends on summer rainfall and when the timber was cut. Timber cut in winter may have enough sunshine during the summer growing season to produce decent growth of early succession plants the first summer after timber harvest. Summer rainfall also plays a major role in the rapidity of regrowth in winter-cut areas. A wet summer produces more growth in the cuts the first growing season.

But timber cut in summer during a dry summer rarely produces enough growth in the cuts for deer attraction during the first fall hunting season after the timbering operation is complete. Those areas often need a second growing season (summer) before they have enough growth to be attractive as a food source or bedding area.


"...Much like a sage grass field..."

As Quailman can tell you, that is why Native Warm-Season Grasses (NWSG) make such excellent deer habitat. Some of these grasses can grow 5-6 feet tall and deer will lay in these tall-grass fields during daylight. They are hidden from ground-level view but can still be exposed to full sunlight on cold days.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1819517 - 03/03/10 08:30 AM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: BSK]
Bottom Hunter
16 Point


Registered: 12/29/06
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Since deer will eat most anything green and even munch on twigs and the like, these clearcuts provide about as much food during gthe winter than any other places, other than grain fields.

Mass crops seem to go first and when they are gone and winter sets in, these clearcuts provide about as much food as there is out there and the added PLUS of a lack of canopy (sunshine) just seems to attract the deer. At least that's the way I've seen things around my area for the past 37 years.

I have three large dogs 70 lbs. plus and they always seek out the sun when it's available in the Winter ....on the coldest days, they leave the shelter of the porch (wind shielded) and lay in the wide open yard in the sunshine.

IMO, other than the fact that a recently cut woods looks bad, I can see no bad issues involving deer. IMO, it does nothing but good for the deer, except for the fact that some mass crop trees may be taken out....

In most cases, older mature woods are detrimental for certain wild game species like rabbits, quail, and even deer....

As these woods mature, they provide very little cover and only provide food during good mass crop years......

Give me a select cut woods every time......and even a clearcut is sometimes better than a mature woods...

JMO

Bh
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There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict.

Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.

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#1819530 - 03/03/10 08:46 AM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: Bottom Hunter]
tndrbstr
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Registered: 10/06/05
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 Originally Posted By: Bottom Hunter
Since deer will eat most anything green
JMO
Bh

They can be pretty picky if given a choice...

 Originally Posted By: Bottom Hunter

In most cases, older mature woods are detrimental for certain wild game species like rabbits, quail, and even deer....

As these woods mature, they provide very little cover and only provide food during good mass crop years......

Give me a select cut woods every time......and even a clearcut is sometimes better than a mature woods...

JMO

Bh


Thats what has happened to much of our national forest system in east tn....The tree huggers have virtualy eliminated rotational harvest of the forest altogeather. As a result, every species of wildlife that is dependant on early succession growth has suffered...it sux...



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#1819592 - 03/03/10 09:25 AM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: tndrbstr]
Bottom Hunter
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most times, we are all picky if given a choice...haha.

watching deer tear twigs off dormant trees and eat them makes me think that they'll eat most anything when times are hard....

much like humans...

haha

BH
_________________________
There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict.

Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.

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#1819797 - 03/03/10 11:57 AM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: Bottom Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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 Originally Posted By: Bottom Hunter
watching deer tear twigs off dormant trees and eat them makes me think that they'll eat most anything when times are hard....


Deer will chew on bark if they are hungry enough, but seeing a deer chew on bark doesn't mean they prefer that food.

Yes, deer will nibble on many things. They do have a fairly diverse diet. But problems arise when woody end-buds are all they have to eat or even the majority of what they have to eat. Those end-buds are not very nutritious.

It all comes down to what percent of their total diet is made up of woody stems. If it is high, that's a serious problem.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1819806 - 03/03/10 12:02 PM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: BSK]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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One thing to remember is the difference between summer foods and winter foods. Yes, deer may have access to huge soybean fields in summer. But once those crops are harvested, what are deer living on in winter? If all they have is harvested crop fields and mature hardwoods, they are going to struggle during a poor acorn year.

Many hunters understand the concept of food budgets and carrying capacity. However, they forget that summer and winter carrying capacity may be very different. Big soybean fields may produce virtually unlimited carrying capacity in the summer, but acornless hardwood may only have a winter carrying capacity of 5-10 deer per square mile. If that is their only winter food source, then that is true carrying capacity. What they have access to in summer is meaningless. The true carrying capacity is the food available during the lowest food availability time of year. In mature hardwoods, that is very, very low.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1819816 - 03/03/10 12:10 PM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: Bottom Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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 Originally Posted By: Bottom Hunter
Give me a select cut woods every time......and even a clearcut is sometimes better than a mature woods...


Give me a regrowing clear-cut EVERY TIME over select-cut and unthinned mature hardwoods.

A young clear-cut can produce 1,000 pounds of deer food per acre per year, and considering a deer needs around a ton of food per year, the carrying capacity of a clear-cut is 0.5 deer per acre (1 deer for every 2 acres). Mature hardwoods often produce around 50 pounds of food per acre per year, which is a carrying capacity of 0.025 deer per acre (1 deer for every 40 acres). That's a difference of a square mile of clear-cut feeding well over 300 deer versus a square mile of mature hardwoods feeding just 16 deer.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1819817 - 03/03/10 12:10 PM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: BSK]
richmanbarbeque
16 Point


Registered: 07/17/03
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
Many hunters understand the concept of food budgets and carrying capacity. However, the forget that summer and winter carrying capacity may be very different. Big soybean fields may produce virtually unlimited carrying capaciy in the summer, but acornless hardwood may only have a winter carrying capacity of 5-10 deer per square mile. If that is their only winter food source, then that is true carrying capacity. What they have access to in summer is meaningless. The true carrying capacity is the food available during the lowest food availability time of year. In mature hardwoods, that is very, very low.


Worth reading again.

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#1819829 - 03/03/10 12:21 PM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
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 Originally Posted By: BSK
The true carrying capacity is the food available during the lowest food availability time of year. In mature hardwoods, that is very, very low.

Put another way, how long can you go without food before your body is harmed or dead?

Doesn't matter if there is surplus of food most of the year, what matters more is how many consecutive days of near zero food can "x" number of deer remain healthy and/or alive.

In my thinking, we should NEVER count acorns as a significant component of carrying capacity.

For these reasons, I believe fall/winter food plots should be planned more to enhance late winter forage than to enhance fall hunting. I prefer planting items that are LESS desirable to deer (than say oats), and produce more forage mass, hopefully still available when the deer really NEED it most.

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#1819833 - 03/03/10 12:25 PM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: BSK]
Wes Parrish
16 Point


Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
A young clear-cut can produce 1,000 pounds of deer food per acre per year . . . . . Mature hardwoods often produce around 50 pounds of food per acre per year . . . . .

Kinda like the difference between a year-round food plot vs. someone throwing out a bag of corn.

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#1819848 - 03/03/10 12:38 PM Re: ANOTHER acreage thread II [Re: Wes Parrish]
Bottom Hunter
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Most every farmer in my area comes back with winter wheat after they harvest their crops......

many times, during the late season, deer will be seen in harvested bean fields more when the crop is gone because there is usually some scrap beans on the ground AND the winter wheat has begun to sprout.....

With that being said, I'm not sure what does the deer more good...the summer/fall beans or the bean scraps and winter wheat during the harsher weather.....

IMO, by the time the beans are harvested, most of the mass crop is gone and this winter wheat and scrap beans comes in mighty handy in dec. and jan.

Actually, I see more deer in these bean fields after they are harvested than while they are standing...

maybe it's because at that time, most of the food is gone ....

more to discuss...

Bh
_________________________
There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict.

Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.

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