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#1802068 - 02/21/10 10:08 PM Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to....
gator-n-buck
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Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL

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producing Trophy bucks. I know TN is not one of the top states but I also know its not one of the bottom states. Is TN even in the top 10 in the U.S.?

Edited by gator-n-buck (02/21/10 10:09 PM)

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#1802093 - 02/21/10 10:35 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: gator-n-buck]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
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We are 30th out of 45 states that have whitetail.

Edited by 8 POINTS OR BETTER (02/21/10 10:47 PM)
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#1802098 - 02/21/10 10:42 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: gator-n-buck]
RKenney
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Registered: 03/15/08
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I don't know the "ranking", but I do know we are getting better
every year. I wonder why this is, with the very poor soil that
we have. I do know a few of the reasons, but it has escalated
rapidly in the last 4 or 5 years.

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#1802104 - 02/21/10 10:54 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
Tree Tramp
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 Originally Posted By: 8 POINTS OR BETTER
We are 30th out of 45 states that have whitetail.


That sounds about right. The list i saw had both P&Y and B&C entries. TN was more toward the end but i do remember we were one ahead of Massachusetts.

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#1802140 - 02/22/10 05:24 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Tree Tramp]
Setterman
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It would be interesting to see how are ranking has changed or not changed over the last 20 years.

Also, this horrble soil produces plenty of fine deer in the same period of time that it takes them to reach similar size in neighboring states. The soil may not be the best, but it certainly isn't as bad as some would have you think. Look at rkenney's comment in this thread as an example. If it were as poor as advertised bucks of any size would be very uncommon.

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#1802162 - 02/22/10 06:04 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Setterman]
Locksley
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interesting
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#1802196 - 02/22/10 06:41 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Locksley]
Football Hunter
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If you look at a soil chart,it pretty much follows the top B&C and P&Y states.The reason things are getting better here and in most states,lower buck limits,and more hunters allowing young bucks to get older.That would be my guess.
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#1802201 - 02/22/10 06:50 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
Setterman
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The main reason most states, including the top states are producing the bucks they are is because of hunters passing on smaller bucks. There is olny so much the govt can do, it is up to us as hunters to mold our states or areas into what they can be, and reveal the potential of our deer herds. That is the way it should be, less interference from the govt, and more freedom for us to choose how to manage our deer. With the "qdm" tsunami the hunting for all of us will only continue to improve regardless of what changes are made in regulations. JMO
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#1802210 - 02/22/10 07:04 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Setterman]
Football Hunter
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AAgree,what else could it be?More and more hunters interested in "quality"bucks?BUt the super soils do play a big role for really big bucks.BTW,there are some places in middle and west Tn with very good soils,its not all rocks and cedar trees!
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#1802311 - 02/22/10 08:16 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
Panther78
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I doubt were really high, but we have some big uns that come from here.
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#1802381 - 02/22/10 08:51 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Setterman]
mathews338
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Registered: 11/05/09
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 Originally Posted By: Setterman
It would be interesting to see how are ranking has changed or not changed over the last 20 years.

Also, this horrble soil produces plenty of fine deer in the same period of time that it takes them to reach similar size in neighboring states. The soil may not be the best, but it certainly isn't as bad as some would have you think. Look at rkenney's comment in this thread as an example. If it were as poor as advertised bucks of any size would be very uncommon.
good point

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#1802384 - 02/22/10 08:52 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
Setterman
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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
AAgree,what else could it be?More and more hunters interested in "quality"bucks?BUt the super soils do play a big role for really big bucks.BTW,there are some places in middle and west Tn with very good soils,its not all rocks and cedar trees!


I agree, when producing super big bucks soils do push things over the edge.

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#1802535 - 02/22/10 10:48 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Setterman]
Winchester
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We are way down the list, but with more and more hunters getting educated we should keep getting better.
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#1802605 - 02/22/10 11:52 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Winchester]
BigWes50
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Ya we are the down side of that list but I to think things are getting better and will continue to get better with hunter education!
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#1802803 - 02/22/10 02:02 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: BigWes50]
Double-D-Team
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Let's be honest...Tn., will never be a trophy state. Or should I say in the top 10 now will it... But it is getting better...
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#1802860 - 02/22/10 02:51 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Double-D-Team]
Setterman
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 Originally Posted By: Double-D-Team
Let's be honest...Tn., will never be a trophy state. Or should I say in the top 10 now will it... But it is getting better...


I do not think we will ever crack the top ten either. The states which are there now will be extremely hard to unseat. The mentality statewide in many of those places is much different then it is here, and they have been producing more "big" bucks then we have for a much longer period of time. I just don't see it happening.

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#1802953 - 02/22/10 04:17 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Setterman]
bullzeye
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I want to see the top five states......
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#1803047 - 02/22/10 05:20 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: bullzeye]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
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 Originally Posted By: bullzeye
I want to see the top five states......


Here is a link for all the states. Look at the last page.

http://www.whitetail-outfitters.com/quality-deer-managed-lands.html
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#1803065 - 02/22/10 05:28 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
Football Hunter
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why was the last post deleted?
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#1803076 - 02/22/10 05:31 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
Football Hunter
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Looks like KY was seven,we were about thirty,makes you scratch your head,such different neighbors.Wish those glaciers would have come on south a little more.
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#1803094 - 02/22/10 05:37 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
Tree Tramp
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TOP TEN WHITETAIL STATES OF ALL-TIME
STATE 1830-2001 1830-1979 1980-2001

1. Iowa 615 108 507
2. Minnesota 608 315 293
3. Wisconsin 589 194 395
4. Illinois 552 43 509
5. Texas 316 157 159
6. Missouri 285 41 244
7. Kentucky 279 37 242
8. Kansas 255 20 235
9. Ohio 235 36 199
10. Michigan 155 55 100

Sorry Football Hunter, this list is B&C entries only and stops at 2001.

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#1803107 - 02/22/10 05:41 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Tree Tramp]
Football Hunter
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 Originally Posted By: Tree Tramp
TOP TEN WHITETAIL STATES OF ALL-TIME
STATE 1830-2001 1830-1979 1980-2001

1. Iowa 615 108 507
2. Minnesota 608 315 293
3. Wisconsin 589 194 395
4. Illinois 552 43 509
5. Texas 316 157 159
6. Missouri 285 41 244
7. Kentucky 279 37 242
8. Kansas 255 20 235
9. Ohio 235 36 199
10. Michigan 155 55 100

Sorry Football Hunter, this list is B&C entries only and stops at 2001.
Ok,still gives a good idea.Always surprised Indiana isnt on that list,its completly surrounded by those states.
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#1803125 - 02/22/10 05:51 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
Tree Tramp
8 Point


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Good point. Looks like they have caught up since 2001 going by 8 point's link.
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#1803136 - 02/22/10 05:55 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Panther78]
tickweed
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Registered: 11/25/09
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You guys have hit the nail on the head.The main reason we are seeing better quality deer is because many are now passing younger deer.I talked to several at TWRA last month,and they said they feel thats what the main factor is also.I hope the trend continues myself.
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#1803156 - 02/22/10 06:02 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
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Registered: 08/15/07
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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Tree Tramp
TOP TEN WHITETAIL STATES OF ALL-TIME
STATE 1830-2001 1830-1979 1980-2001

1. Iowa 615 108 507
2. Minnesota 608 315 293
3. Wisconsin 589 194 395
4. Illinois 552 43 509
5. Texas 316 157 159
6. Missouri 285 41 244
7. Kentucky 279 37 242
8. Kansas 255 20 235
9. Ohio 235 36 199
10. Michigan 155 55 100

Sorry Football Hunter, this list is B&C entries only and stops at 2001.
Ok,still gives a good idea.Always surprised Indiana isnt on that list,its completly surrounded by those states.


Indiana had a three buck limit just a few years ago.
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#1803195 - 02/22/10 06:21 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
JCDEERMAN
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Registered: 07/19/08
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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
Looks like KY was seven,we were about thirty,makes you scratch your head,such different neighbors.Wish those glaciers would have come on south a little more.


With Al Gore's predictions and hunters passing young bucks, we may actually be in the top 10....one day ;\)

\:D \:D
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#1803830 - 02/22/10 08:19 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Tree Tramp]
Football Hunter
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 Originally Posted By: Tree Tramp
Good point. Looks like they have caught up since 2001 going by 8 point's link.
Yep,another interesting thing about that list,Ky is #10,the next "southern "state is Ga at #20.There is a name for this.In general,animals get bigger as you go north.For instance a black bear in Canada is normally much bigger than one in Tn or SC.Same with deer,just cant think of what thats called,Bowriter said it one time.
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#1803870 - 02/22/10 08:26 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
gator-n-buck
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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Tree Tramp
Good point. Looks like they have caught up since 2001 going by 8 point's link.
Yep,another interesting thing about that list,Ky is #10,the next "southern "state is Ga at #20.There is a name for this.In general,animals get bigger as you go north.For instance a black bear in Canada is normally much bigger than one in Tn or SC.Same with deer,just cant think of what thats called,Bowriter said it one time.


More fur?...LOL

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#1803878 - 02/22/10 08:29 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
plinker22
14 Point


Registered: 02/07/05
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If everyone of us would dig up a 5 gallon bucket of KY soil and bring it back to TN... our bucks would surely get bigger. \:D ;\)
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#1803882 - 02/22/10 08:30 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: gator-n-buck]
Football Hunter
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Well ,yes Im sure they have more fur,but the farther north you go,mammals are much larger in general.300 lb plus deer are fairly coomoun up north,very rare here.Works the opposite with fish,think Michigan bass to Florida bass.
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#1803895 - 02/22/10 08:37 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
gator-n-buck
16 Point


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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
Well ,yes Im sure they have more fur,but the farther north you go,mammals are much larger in general.300 lb plus deer are fairly coomoun up north,very rare here.Works the opposite with fish,think Michigan bass to Florida bass.


Yeah, I was just kidding.. Might have something to do with body fat, so they can survive the cold winters.

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#1803927 - 02/22/10 08:51 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
Setterman
8 Point


Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Tree Tramp
Good point. Looks like they have caught up since 2001 going by 8 point's link.
Yep,another interesting thing about that list,Ky is #10,the next "southern "state is Ga at #20.There is a name for this.In general,animals get bigger as you go north.For instance a black bear in Canada is normally much bigger than one in Tn or SC.Same with deer,just cant think of what thats called,Bowriter said it one time.


Not always true, just a small example Ruffed Grouse in the southern Appalachians are larger then their northern counter parts.

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#1803957 - 02/22/10 09:09 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Setterman]
Football Hunter
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Registered: 10/22/07
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Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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 Originally Posted By: Setterman
 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Tree Tramp
Good point. Looks like they have caught up since 2001 going by 8 point's link.
Yep,another interesting thing about that list,Ky is #10,the next "southern "state is Ga at #20.There is a name for this.In general,animals get bigger as you go north.For instance a black bear in Canada is normally much bigger than one in Tn or SC.Same with deer,just cant think of what thats called,Bowriter said it one time.


Not always true, just a small example Ruffed Grouse in the southern Appalachians are larger then their northern counter parts.
I meant mammals
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#1804002 - 02/22/10 09:56 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
jed7
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Registered: 02/21/10
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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Tree Tramp
Good point. Looks like they have caught up since 2001 going by 8 point's link.
Yep,another interesting thing about that list,Ky is #10,the next "southern "state is Ga at #20.There is a name for this.In general,animals get bigger as you go north.For instance a black bear in Canada is normally much bigger than one in Tn or SC.Same with deer,just cant think of what thats called,Bowriter said it one time.


Its called Bergsmanns rule!
But its interesting to note that in Nova Scotia, the body size are huge, but antlers are small. As you travel West, then the antlers seem to get bigger.

If it were all about soils, the South Texas deer would all be spikes, that is some pooooooor ground, without moisture down there.

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#1804036 - 02/22/10 10:26 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
jed7
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Registered: 02/21/10
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Loc: tn, henderson

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 Originally Posted By: 8 POINTS OR BETTER
We are 30th out of 45 states that have whitetail.


the btr scoring systems has an article July 2009, " top boneyards in america" that give the ranking for the most entries in the last few years. I wish I could provide a link to the article. Remember, The BTR gives full credit, so a lot more quality bucks are entered.
It showed the rankings as followed. :
1- Ill
2- oh
3 - louisana
4- indiana
5- kansas
6 miss
7- ky
8- n carolina
9- ark
10- texas
Can any of ya'll computer literate folks find this article ( July 09) and post the link?

Looks like those glaciers jumped over us, both ways to N Carolina, Ark, and Miss!!!!

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#1804230 - 02/23/10 06:30 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: jed7]
Football Hunter
18 Point


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24708
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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 Originally Posted By: jed7
 Originally Posted By: 8 POINTS OR BETTER
We are 30th out of 45 states that have whitetail.


the btr scoring systems has an article July 2009, " top boneyards in america" that give the ranking for the most entries in the last few years. I wish I could provide a link to the article. Remember, The BTR gives full credit, so a lot more quality bucks are entered.
It showed the rankings as followed. :
1- Ill
2- oh
3 - louisana
4- indiana
5- kansas
6 miss
7- ky
8- n carolina
9- ark
10- texas
Can any of ya'll computer literate folks find this article ( July 09) and post the link?

Looks like those glaciers jumped over us, both ways to N Carolina, Ark, and Miss!!!!
Yes ,that has been posted before,a lot of that has to do with Jackies system being more regional to the south,if I remember right.I know that NC in no way would compete with Wisconsin or Iowa in this catagory.


Edited by Football Hunter (02/23/10 06:35 AM)
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#1804236 - 02/23/10 06:33 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: jed7]
Football Hunter
18 Point


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24708
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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 Originally Posted By: jed7
 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Tree Tramp
Good point. Looks like they have caught up since 2001 going by 8 point's link.
Yep,another interesting thing about that list,Ky is #10,the next "southern "state is Ga at #20.There is a name for this.In general,animals get bigger as you go north.For instance a black bear in Canada is normally much bigger than one in Tn or SC.Same with deer,just cant think of what thats called,Bowriter said it one time.


Its called Bergsmanns rule!
But its interesting to note that in Nova Scotia, the body size are huge, but antlers are small. As you travel West, then the antlers seem to get bigger.

If it were all about soils, the South Texas deer would all be spikes, that is some pooooooor ground, without moisture down there.
Yes,Bowriter said it was Brugermans law.

Saw one QDM show,I think it was QDM,anyway,they were talking about Texas,how poor it looked,but turns out many of those thorn bush looking trees and bushes are actually highly nutritious for the deer.Go figure.
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#1804337 - 02/23/10 08:07 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
BigWes50
10 Point


Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3207
Loc: Chattanooga, TN

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If Ky is 10th and GA is 20th how did we get hooped by those glaciers at 30th LOL!
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#1804588 - 02/23/10 11:50 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: BigWes50]
gator-n-buck
16 Point


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14956
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL

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 Originally Posted By: BigWes50
If Ky is 10th and GA is 20th how did we get hooped by those glaciers at 30th LOL!


We didn't... they just have better hunters in those states, LOL


Edited by gator-n-buck (02/23/10 11:50 AM)

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#1805706 - 02/23/10 09:46 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
jed7
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Registered: 02/21/10
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Loc: tn, henderson

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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
 Originally Posted By: jed7
 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Tree Tramp
Good point. Looks like they have caught up since 2001 going by 8 point's link.
Yep,another interesting thing about that list,Ky is #10,the next "southern "state is Ga at #20.There is a name for this.In general,animals get bigger as you go north.For instance a black bear in Canada is normally much bigger than one in Tn or SC.Same with deer,just cant think of what thats called,Bowriter said it one time.


Its called Bergsmanns rule!
But its interesting to note that in Nova Scotia, the body size are huge, but antlers are small. As you travel West, then the antlers seem to get bigger.

If it were all about soils, the South Texas deer would all be spikes, that is some pooooooor ground, without moisture down there.
Yes,Bowriter said it was Brugermans law.

Saw one QDM show,I think it was QDM,anyway,they were talking about Texas,how poor it looked,but turns out many of those thorn bush looking trees and bushes are actually highly nutritious for the deer.Go figure.

yes, some of the grasses have high protein, but mostly a management standard, mature bucks, 5 and over. have a buddy that manages a 125k ac ranch for a bank there, and it is unreal. I set on a food plot one afternoon and saw 28 bucks, they had a really balanced ratio buck /doe.
I never shot one, but got a lot of good video for memories, including one 150 in 10 pt that was 4 yr old ( should have shot him)

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#1807748 - 02/24/10 10:34 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: Football Hunter]
jed7
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Registered: 02/21/10
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Loc: tn, henderson

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I would agree that there is a correlation between number of available scores and number of entries.
But , were are we at? We have the scorers, just dont have the entries .

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#1807846 - 02/25/10 05:38 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: jed7]
mike243
14 Point


Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 9937
Loc: east tn

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keeping "score" & competing have created the trophy hunter mindset that we see today,i don't worry about how big my neighbors is & he shouldn't worry about how big mine is, \:\) ,as long as were both having fun we don't need to be jealous of others.other things besides wife's can be coveted.mike243
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#1807865 - 02/25/10 05:59 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: mike243]
stik
TnDeer Old Timer
16 Point


Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 18546
Loc: lenoir city,tn

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#1 in my book \:\)
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experienced hunters know its not just a bushy white tail, its a big middle finger.

nothing makes a fish bigger than almost being caught


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#1808078 - 02/25/10 08:17 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: mike243]
DWM
8 Point


Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 1766
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: mike243
keeping "score" & competing have created the trophy hunter mindset that we see today,i don't worry about how big my neighbors is & he shouldn't worry about how big mine is, \:\) ,as long as were both having fun we don't need to be jealous of others.other things besides wife's can be coveted.mike243
Just because someone likes to see someone else's deer doesn't mean they are jealous or coveting it. Some people enjoy sharing the excitement. I have been as happy for others when they get a big deer as I would have if I killed it. I see nothing wrong with a friendly competition if some enjoy that. Without competition not to many sports would be left. I guess it all depends on how you look at neighbors or friends deer. Your mindset does not describe the way I look at others deer. I just enjoy looking at them.
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#1809801 - 02/25/10 10:02 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: DWM]
jed7
Button


Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 19
Loc: tn, henderson

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 Originally Posted By: DWM
 Originally Posted By: mike243
keeping "score" & competing have created the trophy hunter mindset that we see today,i don't worry about how big my neighbors is & he shouldn't worry about how big mine is, \:\) ,as long as were both having fun we don't need to be jealous of others.other things besides wife's can be coveted.mike243
Just because someone likes to see someone else's deer doesn't mean they are jealous or coveting it. Some people enjoy sharing the excitement. I have been as happy for others when they get a big deer as I would have if I killed it. I see nothing wrong with a friendly competition if some enjoy that. Without competition not to many sports would be left. I guess it all depends on how you look at neighbors or friends deer. Your mindset does not describe the way I look at others deer. I just enjoy looking at them.


competition is what "most" people enjoy, whether it be golf, pool, hunting, fishing , whatever.
Keeping score has/is the standard in which we measure, " baseball, fishing, hunting"
Agreed, that as we age score seems to less important than before, but it still counts.
Keeping score, is what has brought all states deer herds to where they are today, Pulications such as N AM WT, buckmasters, rack, and others that specifically talk about giant bucks , management, SCORE, and other things is the spark that has lit the torch for Whitetail deer in all states.

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#1813758 - 02/27/10 09:55 PM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
budro2
Spike


Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 74
Loc: tn,perry

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 Originally Posted By: 8 POINTS OR BETTER
 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
 Originally Posted By: Tree Tramp
TOP TEN WHITETAIL STATES OF ALL-TIME
STATE 1830-2001 1830-1979 1980-2001

1. Iowa 615 108 507
2. Minnesota 608 315 293
3. Wisconsin 589 194 395
4. Illinois 552 43 509
5. Texas 316 157 159
6. Missouri 285 41 244
7. Kentucky 279 37 242
8. Kansas 255 20 235
9. Ohio 235 36 199
10. Michigan 155 55 100

Sorry Football Hunter, this list is B&C entries only and stops at 2001.
Ok,still gives a good idea.Always surprised Indiana isnt on that list,its completly surrounded by those states.


Indiana had a three buck limit just a few years ago.


they went to a 1 buck limit , in the last few years, been putting them in b/c since then

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#1816014 - 03/01/10 10:21 AM Re: Where does Tennessee rank when it comes to.... [Re: gator-n-buck]
BigWes50
10 Point


Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3207
Loc: Chattanooga, TN

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 Originally Posted By: gator-n-buck
 Originally Posted By: BigWes50
If Ky is 10th and GA is 20th how did we get hooped by those glaciers at 30th LOL!


We didn't... they just have better hunters in those states, LOL


Speak for yourself!
_________________________
Just as the deer can suddenly materialize in the woods, "Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44)

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