#1792396 - 02/16/10 11:20 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Beekeeper]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3974
Loc: jackson co.
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!!  What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further?  Sounds good to me. MZ ONLY!!! Recurves only!!! Long Bows!!! Spears Knives and a rope!!! Bear hands and teeth.....if you got any!!!!! 
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#1792406 - 02/16/10 11:25 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3974
Loc: jackson co.
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the problem is that you have no proof that it wouldn't work either We RAISED the limit this year and INCREASED the harvest of 3 1/2+ year-old bucks to the highest number ever. That's pretty good proof that it's not necessary. The problem with common logic is that it's almost always wrong. It's an overly simplistic view of a complex issue.
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#1792421 - 02/16/10 11:32 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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DWM
8 Point
Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 1766
Loc: TN
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Wes and DWM,
But what you're forgetting is the whole argument against the new season dates and statewide 3 buck limit was that 1) it would cause far more bucks to be killed; and 2) it would cause a big increase in the kill of young bucks.
Neither of those happened. In fact, if someone asked me to find something "biologically negative" about the results of last year's limits and seasons, I would be hard pressed to do so, short of perhaps not enough does killed. But hunters 1) didn't kill significantly more bucks; 2) had the positive results of killing more 3 1/2+ bucks; and 3) killed the fewest number of yearling bucks in years. What's not to like about that?
Don't get me wrong. Personally I prefer a statewide 2 buck limit simply out of principle. But if pushed to state a biological reason for a 2 buck limit, I can't do it. No good biological reason exists at this point. Of course, we only have one year's data to work from, and making "grand" decisions based on a single year's data is always dangerous.
No I havent forgot any of that stuff. I was just saying that this years limits did not create more 3 1/2 year old bucks. Now biologically the difference between a 2 and 3 buck limit would probably not even be measurable since our deer are already in good shape. Like I have said before I believe a 2 buck limit will give a higher percentage of hunter success and a few more mature bucks. I believe you yourself has said that your buck numbers were down this year. And yes I remember you saying several times you would like the 2 buck limit. I know there are several like you that do not hunt with every weapon and that is why I favor the 2 buck limit over the 1 per weapon. I'm just glad things are better than they were in the 70's!
_________________________
Team Witness
Witness in the Woods
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#1792491 - 02/16/10 12:07 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: DWM]
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fishboy1
14 Point
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 9698
Loc: Warren Co
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SO following the buck limit guys logic.
Limit buck harvest and there will be more trophy bucks. More older bucks will be killed per year leaving you with the same or fewer older bucks....
BUT What happens when the older buck harvest goes up and they STILL aren't killing the kind of bucks they THINK they should be killing like on TV...?
"We are killing too many older bucks and that is why I can't kill what I THINK I should be killing... We better limit the buck harvest even further...."
How many people on here have hunted a large piece of private land with limited harvest pressure and NOT seen and killed a whopper buck? Could it be something OTHER Than the regulations which is keeping you from meeting your desires?
Just a thought.
_________________________
A gun in the hand is worth 2 cops on the phone. No one can name a single power the government has granted itself that hasn't been abused. Socialism is for losers http://amillerphotoevent.com
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#1792690 - 02/16/10 01:48 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: fishboy1]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3974
Loc: jackson co.
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SO following the buck limit guys logic.
Limit buck harvest and there will be more trophy bucks. More older bucks will be killed per year leaving you with the same or fewer older bucks....
BUT What happens when the older buck harvest goes up and they STILL aren't killing the kind of bucks they THINK they should be killing like on TV...?
"We are killing too many older bucks and that is why I can't kill what I THINK I should be killing... We better limit the buck harvest even further...."
How many people on here have hunted a large piece of private land with limited harvest pressure and NOT seen and killed a whopper buck? Could it be something OTHER Than the regulations which is keeping you from meeting your desires?
Just a thought.
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#1794181 - 02/17/10 08:19 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: mathews338]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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The problem with common logic is that it's almost always wrong. It's an overly simplistic view of a complex issue. IMO not enough of it is used and it is never wrong that is why it is called COMMON
It's called "common" because it is the common perception. The problem is, the common perception--even when it is based on logic--is often wrong, and it is wrong because it involves an overly simplistic analysis of a complex issue.
Now common logic exists that is correct and that is because the issue IS simplistic. For instance the old montra of "dead deer don't grow older" is common logic that is correct because the issue is simplistic. Death is absolute and dead animals can't grow older.
However much of the "common logic" of deer management is dead [pardon the pun] wrong because the issues are so complex. I spend an innordinate amount of time on this website trying to explain why these common logic assessments are wrong. The processes being assessed with common logic are far more complex than simplistic analyses can account for.
What I'm talking about are common logic assessments like, "Does are the fawn producers. The more does you have the more fawns you will have." Sometimes this is correct, but sometimes this is not correct. As deer density increases, nutritional intake of individual does decreases, and fawn production per doe decreases. It is often literally true that more surviving fawns could be produced by having less does than more does.
Another "common logic" assessment I hear all the time is, "Bucks will go where the does are during the rut." This "common logic" is usually used to defend keeping a high doe density on a property (not shooting any or many does). Now this basic logic is true in principle (bucks are drawn to does during the rut), but in practice it may not help the hunter (and it is used to defend a management principle that is supposed to aid the hunter--increase harvest opportunities on bucks). Most breeding occurs at night, and bucks will make forays into a high doe density area at night to breed, but all the best research makes it clear older bucks focus their daylight activity where sanctuary is greatest (where they are most protected from hunting pressure). These sanctuary areas may contain few does, yet for mature bucks, daylight survival takes precidence over daylight breeding. When it comes to harvest results how many does you have may be completely immaterial.
The argument over culling is also based on incorrect common logic. Common logic says 50% of a buck's antler genetics come from his father and 50% from his mother hence removing small antlered males so they can't pass on their small antler genetics has to have some positive affect. Yet antler genetics are far, FAR more complex than that and bucks may not get 50% of their antler genetics from their father. In fact, they may get little antler genetics from their father hence culling does absolutely nothing towards improving a local herd's antler genetics.
All this comes back to the current argument--buck limits. Common logic says that lower buck limits force hunters to be more selective about what they harvest. This may have been true in the past, but the data is quite clear this is not the case anymore. If it were true, the states with the lowest buck limits would have the lowest percent of their harvest being young bucks (hunters would pass young bucks and selectively harvest older bucks). Yet this isn't the case. KY has a 1 buck limit while TN has had a 3 buck limit in two of the three management Units for several years. Common logic says hunters in KY will kill few yearling bucks while hunters in TN with more liberal limits will kill more yearling bucks. However consistently hunters in KY kill the same or a higher percentage of yearlings than TN hunters do. The common logic of hunters being forced to be more selective by lower limits simply isn't accurate. It's becoming obvious that hunters have changed their attitudes and those that care about harvesting big bucks are already voluntarily passing up young bucks, no matter the limits. Limits are no longer the driving force in what size/age bucks hunters decide to kill.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1794492 - 02/17/10 10:23 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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BigWes50
10 Point
Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3207
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
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I don't have proof that it will work but do you have proof that it will not?
_________________________
Just as the deer can suddenly materialize in the woods, "Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44)
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#1794699 - 02/17/10 12:30 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BigWes50]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I don't have proof that it will work but do you have proof that it will not?
Strong suggestion that it will not. Again, look at KY. They are not killing more older bucks with a lower buck limit.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1794736 - 02/17/10 12:44 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16955
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Again, look at KY. They are not killing more older bucks with a lower buck limit.
But, are the bucks they are killing, OLDER?
And just how signficant is the percentage of yearlings?
Isn't the TOTAL male harvest relative the population much more important than how many were yearlings?
How about the ratio of males harvested to females harvested?
Isn't that more important than how many of the bucks were yearlings?
If the buck limit is three, and we change it to two (and change nothing else), my uncommon logic says we will make improvements on herd health, no matter whether the percent of yearlings changes or not.
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#1794747 - 02/17/10 12:51 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Again, look at KY. They are not killing more older bucks with a lower buck limit. But, are the bucks they are killing, OLDER?
I'm not sure I understand your question Wes.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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