#1790416 - 02/15/10 03:15 PM
Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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I have seen threads dealing with buck limits for several years on this site now. I have never seen proof that going to a one buck or 2 buck limit would improve the age structure or antlers of the bucks in TN. I know everybody has an opinion but does anybody have any proof that lowering the regs. from a three buck limit would improve age structure or antlers (TN).
I don't want to hear that this state has done it and it has worked. That would be like comparing the size of bass caught in FL to the ones that are caught in TN. No matter what we do, the bass in FL will always grow bigger than the bass in TN. Thats just the way it is.....
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#1790443 - 02/15/10 03:27 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3989
Loc: jackson co.
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the problem is that you have no proof that it wouldn't work either
TN got alot better when they lowered the buck limit before and it would be no different now
the lower the buck limit is ,the more that survive to reach maturity and the greater the chance for everyone to get one
COMMON LOGIC
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#1790447 - 02/15/10 03:28 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24565
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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I dont now how you could have "proof" of a state wide reg would,or would not work if it hasnt been tried.I would guess that it wouldnt have a big effect on overall buck numbers since it has been stated on here ad nauseum that most hunters dont kill 3,or even 2.I killed 0,1 miss and many passes to young bucks.
That being said,I cant see how it wouldnt improve age structure,at least in a small way,seems impossible that it wouldnt.
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#1790478 - 02/15/10 03:47 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Football Hunter]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24565
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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BTW ,didnt TWRA more or less say ,lets see what happens,when they changed to a longer gun,yes a MZL is a gun,season.Where was the "proof" that it would or would not work?
I havent read up on the numbers,but I beleive it was a wash with the year before.
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#1790563 - 02/15/10 04:40 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: ]
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Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point
Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 10953
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee
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why wouldnt it work???????????????
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#1790574 - 02/15/10 04:44 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: ]
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vabuckbuster
8 Point
Registered: 10/01/08
Posts: 2077
Loc: Virginia
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It seems to me that being forced to let more bucks walk would have to directly translate to more bucks living longer, thus more mature bucks. Aside from all the other things that come into play here, I don't see how that's not a given
I don't hunt tennessee and don't have a preference, but it seems to be fairly reasonable that a one buck limit would have to mean bigger older bucks...at least until over population began to have an affect.
I don't see how whether it would work or not is an issue. How could it not work? On that same note....if you couldn't kill a buck at all, that would mean even more older mature bucks wouldn't it?
Edited by vabuckbuster (02/15/10 04:49 PM)
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#1790588 - 02/15/10 04:47 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Beekeeper]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3989
Loc: jackson co.
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why wouldnt it work??????????????? Why wouldn't increasing the buck limit to 6(2 for archery, 2 for MZ and 2 for gun)work also?
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#1790593 - 02/15/10 04:50 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: mathews338]
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Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point
Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 10953
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee
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why wouldnt it work??????????????? Why wouldn't increasing the buck limit to 6(2 for archery, 2 for MZ and 2 for gun)work also? give me rights to hunt your farm and i'll show you why it wouldn't work 
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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#1790610 - 02/15/10 04:59 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: bullzeye]
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paradis1142
10 Point
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 3836
Loc: crossville tn
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!!  What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further? 
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#1790614 - 02/15/10 05:00 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Beekeeper]
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102
10 Point
Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 3653
Loc: Tennessee
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I am not capable of gathering this type of info. and I really don't care one way or the other, but it seems to me that one should be able to ascertain about how many hunters in Tn. killed 2 bucks each for the last few years, and how many killed three.
I imagine that after all the numbers were tallied, there are EXTREMELY few hunters in Tennessee who kill their quota of THREE bucks. I mean if there are 20,000 deer hunters in Tn., I would guess that somewhere around TEN percent of that total number kill THREE bucks per year on average for the last few years.
One may argue that a survey on this site is tangible or statistically significant, but in truth, it is NOT.
It is my STRONG belief that as more and more hunters become educated about QDM and balancing the herd, there will be more and more hunters satisfied with the Tn deer herd.
102
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#1790618 - 02/15/10 05:01 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: paradis1142]
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Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point
Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 10953
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!! What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further? Sounds good to me.
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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#1790658 - 02/15/10 05:18 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: 102]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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I am not capable of gathering this type of info.
Thanks for making my point... The guys that are capable of gathering this data are the guys making the decisions. I wondering how a guy that hunts a track of land can decide what the whole state of TN buck limit regs. should be. Thats is just crazy when you think about it.....
P.S. I don't have the answers and I don't really care if its one or 3 bucks a year. I really don't think a lot of guys on here have the answers either, they just want something to gripe about....
Edited by gator-n-buck (02/15/10 05:24 PM)
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#1790666 - 02/15/10 05:21 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point
Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 10953
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee
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I am not capable of gathering this type of info. Thanks for making my point... The guys that are capable of gathering this data are the guys making the decisions. I wondering how a guy that hunts a track of land can decide what the whole state of TN buck limit regs. should be. Thats is just crazy when you think about it.....
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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#1790707 - 02/15/10 05:36 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24565
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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I am not capable of gathering this type of info. Thanks for making my point... The guys that are capable of gathering this data are the guys making the decisions. I wondering how a guy that hunts a track of land can decide what the whole state of TN buck limit regs. should be. Thats is just crazy when you think about it..... P.S. I don't have the answers and I don't really care if its one or 3 bucks a year. I really don't think a lot of guys on here have the answers either, they just want something to gripe about....
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The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1790739 - 02/15/10 05:51 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Football Hunter]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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I am not capable of gathering this type of info. Thanks for making my point... The guys that are capable of gathering this data are the guys making the decisions. I wondering how a guy that hunts a track of land can decide what the whole state of TN buck limit regs. should be. Thats is just crazy when you think about it..... P.S. I don't have the answers and I don't really care if its one or 3 bucks a year. I really don't think a lot of guys on here have the answers either, they just want something to gripe about.... And I wonder how the buck limits can be the same from Kingsport to Memphis,vastly different deer numbers and habitat across the whole region.But you asked for proof,I have none,but I doubt any one has "proof"That a 3 or 2 or 1 or whatever is best for ALL of Tn.
Could buck limits be different from N. Kingsport vs South Kingsport...? Probably so but it would be a little tough for TWRA to figure out the buck limits for 95 counties.. It pobably could be done if we wanted to pay a $1,000.00 for a Sportman License..
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#1790768 - 02/15/10 06:03 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point
Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 3869
Loc: Hardin, Co.
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Will it looks like when they increased the buck limit to 3 in unit B this year the buck kill increased around 16% in unit B.
Edited by 8 POINTS OR BETTER (02/15/10 06:03 PM)
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#1790781 - 02/15/10 06:07 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Beekeeper]
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buckmaster 320
6 Point
Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 708
Loc: cookeville,tn
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!! What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further? Sounds good to me. MZ ONLY!!!
Recurves only!!!
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#1790809 - 02/15/10 06:18 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: buckmaster 320]
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Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point
Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 10953
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!! What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further? Sounds good to me. MZ ONLY!!! Recurves only!!!
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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#1790814 - 02/15/10 06:19 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Beekeeper]
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bullzeye
10 Point
Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 3986
Loc: White House Tn
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!! What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further? Sounds good to me. MZ ONLY!!! Recurves only!!! Long Bows!!!
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Try not to become a man of success but a man of value.
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Knowledge talks, wisdom listens.
GO GATORS
Tndeer Debate Club
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#1790825 - 02/15/10 06:21 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: bullzeye]
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buckmaster 320
6 Point
Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 708
Loc: cookeville,tn
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!! What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further? Sounds good to me. MZ ONLY!!! Recurves only!!! Long Bows!!! Spears
Sling Shots hunting over bait!!!
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#1790827 - 02/15/10 06:21 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: bullzeye]
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Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point
Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 10953
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!! What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further? Sounds good to me. MZ ONLY!!! Recurves only!!! Long Bows!!! Spears
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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#1790844 - 02/15/10 06:24 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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DWM
8 Point
Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 1766
Loc: TN
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I am not capable of gathering this type of info. Thanks for making my point... The guys that are capable of gathering this data are the guys making the decisions. I wondering how a guy that hunts a track of land can decide what the whole state of TN buck limit regs. should be. Thats is just crazy when you think about it..... P.S. I don't have the answers and I don't really care if its one or 3 bucks a year. I really don't think a lot of guys on here have the answers either, they just want something to gripe about....
Right it would be virtually impossible for any hunter to have any data to prove it. Just like in the other thread asking what will it hurt. No proof it will hurt. It would also be very hard for the guys making the decisions to have this data cause you can't collect data that is not there because it hasn't been tried. I am sure they have data of how it has affected other states but this discussion said proof that it will work in Tn.
Like I have said in some of the other 10,000 threads about limits, I am flexible but would still like to try new things. It seems that a lot of the discussion is about what is biologically best. Remember our deer herd is in good shape as far as health goes. Our regulation should protect that first and foremost. With that being said small changes will probably have no impact on the health of the deer at all. So in my opinion the regs are now leaning towards hunter satisfaction. If there is any sign of a herd health declining I feel confident they will fix it quickly. So what is the point of trying to prove one way or the other how either limit is going to impact the deer biologically? Right now it's all about what we as hunters want for ourselves!
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#1790913 - 02/15/10 06:52 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: bullzeye]
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SAR Swimmer
4 Point
Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 499
Loc: Pleasant View, TN/ Jacksonvill...
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!! What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further?
LMAO! Now I don't care who you are- THAT's FUNNY RIGHT THERE!!
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"So Others May Live"
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#1791047 - 02/15/10 07:34 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: SAR Swimmer]
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tickweed
10 Point
Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 3555
Loc: medon,Tn.
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No matter what the limit,or season structure,someones unhappy.Theres really not an answer.I'm sure it could be better as far as having more mature deer,but its already much better than it ever has been,and I really believe that the main reason above all that hunters are taking more mature bucks is because we as a whole are passing more and more younger bucks.Who knows!
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#1791052 - 02/15/10 07:34 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Beekeeper]
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bullzeye
10 Point
Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 3986
Loc: White House Tn
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!! What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further? Sounds good to me. MZ ONLY!!! Recurves only!!! Long Bows!!! Spears Knives and a rope!!!
Bear hands and teeth.....if you got any!!!!!
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Try not to become a man of success but a man of value.
- Albert Einstein
Knowledge talks, wisdom listens.
GO GATORS
Tndeer Debate Club
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#1791169 - 02/15/10 07:59 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: bullzeye]
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Beekeeper
Good ol' Boys "Team Buckcreek"
16 Point
Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 10953
Loc: McMinn Co. Tennessee
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!! What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further? Sounds good to me. MZ ONLY!!! Recurves only!!! Long Bows!!! Spears Knives and a rope!!! Bear hands and teeth.....if you got any!!!!!
_________________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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#1791214 - 02/15/10 08:09 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: buckmaster 320]
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backstraps
12 Point
Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 6357
Loc: NE Tennessee
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IN upper East Tenn the buck limit just went from 2-3 bucks per year. I cant tell you how many times I heard " I shot that little 4 pointer for the freezer, I have another buck tag" If the majority of hunters doesnt harvest but 1-2 bucks a year, then what would it hurt to lower to a 2 buck limit.
I can tell you this... for the majority of hunters I heard make the comment about having a bonus tag in Unit B this year... if they only had two tags... I would imagine the most of them would be a little more picky on the 2nd buck the harvested!
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#1791263 - 02/15/10 08:21 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: backstraps]
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8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point
Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 3869
Loc: Hardin, Co.
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I can tell you this... for the majority of hunters I heard make the comment about having a bonus tag in Unit B this year... if they only had two tags... I would imagine the most of them would be a little more picky on the 2nd buck the harvested!
Looks like you are right. The number of hunters in unit B that shot a 2nd buck this year increased over a 1000, compared to last year.
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" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold
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#1791319 - 02/15/10 08:33 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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mrjim43
4 Point
Registered: 10/03/00
Posts: 180
Loc: Benton Co.,Tn
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Quanity verses quality or quality verses quanity, who knows for sure. Outstanding info for both sides
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#1791916 - 02/16/10 07:02 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: mathews338]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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the problem is that you have no proof that it wouldn't work either
We RAISED the limit this year and INCREASED the harvest of 3 1/2+ year-old bucks to the highest number ever. That's pretty good proof that it's not necessary.
The problem with common logic is that it's almost always wrong. It's an overly simplistic view of a complex issue.
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"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1791923 - 02/16/10 07:09 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Beekeeper]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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The only thing I will say is that it has worked in other states, and it has worked on parcels of land within states. I don't know if there is any way to say one way or the other that it will work or won't work. That is, until it is tried out for a period of time.
It has worked well in other places, but would a 3 buck limit have worked as well with similar results in those places.
Who the h*ll knows.
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#1791948 - 02/16/10 07:30 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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We RAISED the limit this year and INCREASED the harvest of 3 1/2+ year-old bucks to the highest number ever.
To me, that is more indicative of proof that more 3 1/2-yr-old bucks were GROWN under a DECREASED buck limit; and it is more indicative of proof that in the future there will be less 3 1/2-yr-old and older bucks available for harvest, i.e. more 2 1/2 & 3 1/2-yr-old bucks were killed after INCREASING the buck limit to three.
Beyond logical, it is illogical that raising buck limits will not increase buck harvests, all other factors being equal. Just how much depends largely on the percentage of increase.
Raising the November buck limit from one to three was a 200% increase, and note how much the muzzleloader buck harvest increased (even with a growing number of hunters volutarily passing up 1 1/2-yr-old bucks). The regular centerfire rifle harvest might have been much greater, too, if so many hadn't already been harvested during the 2 prior weeks of muzzleloader.
Raising the buck limit from 2 to 3 is a 50% increase, not as significant as going from 1 to 3. Once we go beyond somewhere around 3, the "practibility" of harvesting more deer may become a bigger issue than the actual buck limit. Further muddying the waters of analyzing "just how much difference" a 2 or a 3-buck limit can make, is the fact so many more hunters are each year voluntarily passing up 1 1/2-yr-old yearling bucks, not to mention we went from a more complex "2-3" to a simple "3" buck limit. We could probably go back to an 11-buck limit and it would not cause a huge increase above the 3-buck limit.
But to say there's little difference in long-term effect of a simple 2-buck vs. a simple 3-buck limit is ludicrous, even though I believe the main negative may be more in a reduced doe harvest than in an increased buck harvest.
The problem with common logic is that it's almost always wrong. It's an overly simplistic view of a complex issue.
On that, we agree.
Problem is, it is that "common logic" that has many thinking raising the buck limit causes an increase in the harvest of 3 1/2-yr-old bucks. It does, the first year, but mainly because of the prior years' buck limits being less.
What happens three years down the road?
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#1791952 - 02/16/10 07:31 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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DWM
8 Point
Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 1766
Loc: TN
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the problem is that you have no proof that it wouldn't work either We RAISED the limit this year and INCREASED the harvest of 3 1/2+ year-old bucks to the highest number ever. That's pretty good proof that it's not necessary
_________________________
Team Witness
Witness in the Woods
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#1791960 - 02/16/10 07:40 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: DWM]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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The big difference down the road is going to be in much fewer 4 1/2-yr-old and older bucks and in a poorer buck:doe ratio, poorer overall herd health.
More hunters will choose to shoot a buck instead of a doe; more hunters will choose to take 2 bucks instead of 1 buck and 1 doe.
Of course, if we want to increase the statewide deer population, there may be no better way than by increasing the buck limit. Just keep in mind that with that increased population we can expect poorer herd heatlh, i.e. such as bucks of each age class will have smaller antlers than they had when competition for food sources was less.
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#1792044 - 02/16/10 08:54 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Beekeeper]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3989
Loc: jackson co.
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why wouldnt it work??????????????? Why wouldn't increasing the buck limit to 6(2 for archery, 2 for MZ and 2 for gun)work also? give me rights to hunt your farm and i'll show you why it wouldn't work I thought you said that you never killed 3 anyway so you in no way would be able to kill 6.
and they are mature but i don't kill them on the same farm i try to kill one deer then move on to next spot has worked perfect for me
your probably thinking then why would i want to go to 2 or less buck limit
answer is that i don't really care but when hunters like you say it wouldn't make a difference then is when i have to put my 2 cents in
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#1792159 - 02/16/10 09:41 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: mathews338]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Wes and DWM,
But what you're forgetting is the whole argument against the new season dates and statewide 3 buck limit was that 1) it would cause far more bucks to be killed; and 2) it would cause a big increase in the kill of young bucks.
Neither of those happened. In fact, if someone asked me to find something "biologically negative" about the results of last year's limits and seasons, I would be hard pressed to do so, short of perhaps not enough does killed. But hunters 1) didn't kill significantly more bucks; 2) had the positive results of killing more 3 1/2+ bucks; and 3) killed the fewest number of yearling bucks in years. What's not to like about that?
Don't get me wrong. Personally I prefer a statewide 2 buck limit simply out of principle. But if pushed to state a biological reason for a 2 buck limit, I can't do it. No good biological reason exists at this point. Of course, we only have one year's data to work from, and making "grand" decisions based on a single year's data is always dangerous.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1792391 - 02/16/10 11:15 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3989
Loc: jackson co.
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Wes and DWM,
But what you're forgetting is the whole argument against the new season dates and statewide 3 buck limit was that 1) it would cause far more bucks to be killed; and 2) it would cause a big increase in the kill of young bucks.
Neither of those happened. In fact, if someone asked me to find something "biologically negative" about the results of last year's limits and seasons, I would be hard pressed to do so, short of perhaps not enough does killed. But hunters 1) didn't kill significantly more bucks; 2) had the positive results of killing more 3 1/2+ bucks; and 3) killed the fewest number of yearling bucks in years. What's not to like about that?
Don't get me wrong. Personally I prefer a statewide 2 buck limit simply out of principle. But if pushed to state a biological reason for a 2 buck limit, I can't do it. No good biological reason exists at this point. Of course, we only have one year's data to work from, and making "grand" decisions based on a single year's data is always dangerous.
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#1792396 - 02/16/10 11:20 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Beekeeper]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3989
Loc: jackson co.
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Ohhh here we go again yall are too funny!!!!! What about you can only kill 2 and one has to be atleast 750 yards or further? Sounds good to me. MZ ONLY!!! Recurves only!!! Long Bows!!! Spears Knives and a rope!!! Bear hands and teeth.....if you got any!!!!!
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#1792406 - 02/16/10 11:25 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3989
Loc: jackson co.
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the problem is that you have no proof that it wouldn't work either We RAISED the limit this year and INCREASED the harvest of 3 1/2+ year-old bucks to the highest number ever. That's pretty good proof that it's not necessary. The problem with common logic is that it's almost always wrong. It's an overly simplistic view of a complex issue.
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#1792421 - 02/16/10 11:32 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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DWM
8 Point
Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 1766
Loc: TN
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Wes and DWM,
But what you're forgetting is the whole argument against the new season dates and statewide 3 buck limit was that 1) it would cause far more bucks to be killed; and 2) it would cause a big increase in the kill of young bucks.
Neither of those happened. In fact, if someone asked me to find something "biologically negative" about the results of last year's limits and seasons, I would be hard pressed to do so, short of perhaps not enough does killed. But hunters 1) didn't kill significantly more bucks; 2) had the positive results of killing more 3 1/2+ bucks; and 3) killed the fewest number of yearling bucks in years. What's not to like about that?
Don't get me wrong. Personally I prefer a statewide 2 buck limit simply out of principle. But if pushed to state a biological reason for a 2 buck limit, I can't do it. No good biological reason exists at this point. Of course, we only have one year's data to work from, and making "grand" decisions based on a single year's data is always dangerous.
No I havent forgot any of that stuff. I was just saying that this years limits did not create more 3 1/2 year old bucks. Now biologically the difference between a 2 and 3 buck limit would probably not even be measurable since our deer are already in good shape. Like I have said before I believe a 2 buck limit will give a higher percentage of hunter success and a few more mature bucks. I believe you yourself has said that your buck numbers were down this year. And yes I remember you saying several times you would like the 2 buck limit. I know there are several like you that do not hunt with every weapon and that is why I favor the 2 buck limit over the 1 per weapon. I'm just glad things are better than they were in the 70's!
_________________________
Team Witness
Witness in the Woods
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#1792491 - 02/16/10 12:07 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: DWM]
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fishboy1
14 Point
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 9715
Loc: Warren Co
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SO following the buck limit guys logic.
Limit buck harvest and there will be more trophy bucks. More older bucks will be killed per year leaving you with the same or fewer older bucks....
BUT What happens when the older buck harvest goes up and they STILL aren't killing the kind of bucks they THINK they should be killing like on TV...?
"We are killing too many older bucks and that is why I can't kill what I THINK I should be killing... We better limit the buck harvest even further...."
How many people on here have hunted a large piece of private land with limited harvest pressure and NOT seen and killed a whopper buck? Could it be something OTHER Than the regulations which is keeping you from meeting your desires?
Just a thought.
_________________________
A gun in the hand is worth 2 cops on the phone. No one can name a single power the government has granted itself that hasn't been abused. Socialism is for losers http://amillerphotoevent.com
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#1792690 - 02/16/10 01:48 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: fishboy1]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3989
Loc: jackson co.
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SO following the buck limit guys logic.
Limit buck harvest and there will be more trophy bucks. More older bucks will be killed per year leaving you with the same or fewer older bucks....
BUT What happens when the older buck harvest goes up and they STILL aren't killing the kind of bucks they THINK they should be killing like on TV...?
"We are killing too many older bucks and that is why I can't kill what I THINK I should be killing... We better limit the buck harvest even further...."
How many people on here have hunted a large piece of private land with limited harvest pressure and NOT seen and killed a whopper buck? Could it be something OTHER Than the regulations which is keeping you from meeting your desires?
Just a thought.
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#1794181 - 02/17/10 08:19 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: mathews338]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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The problem with common logic is that it's almost always wrong. It's an overly simplistic view of a complex issue. IMO not enough of it is used and it is never wrong that is why it is called COMMON
It's called "common" because it is the common perception. The problem is, the common perception--even when it is based on logic--is often wrong, and it is wrong because it involves an overly simplistic analysis of a complex issue.
Now common logic exists that is correct and that is because the issue IS simplistic. For instance the old montra of "dead deer don't grow older" is common logic that is correct because the issue is simplistic. Death is absolute and dead animals can't grow older.
However much of the "common logic" of deer management is dead [pardon the pun] wrong because the issues are so complex. I spend an innordinate amount of time on this website trying to explain why these common logic assessments are wrong. The processes being assessed with common logic are far more complex than simplistic analyses can account for.
What I'm talking about are common logic assessments like, "Does are the fawn producers. The more does you have the more fawns you will have." Sometimes this is correct, but sometimes this is not correct. As deer density increases, nutritional intake of individual does decreases, and fawn production per doe decreases. It is often literally true that more surviving fawns could be produced by having less does than more does.
Another "common logic" assessment I hear all the time is, "Bucks will go where the does are during the rut." This "common logic" is usually used to defend keeping a high doe density on a property (not shooting any or many does). Now this basic logic is true in principle (bucks are drawn to does during the rut), but in practice it may not help the hunter (and it is used to defend a management principle that is supposed to aid the hunter--increase harvest opportunities on bucks). Most breeding occurs at night, and bucks will make forays into a high doe density area at night to breed, but all the best research makes it clear older bucks focus their daylight activity where sanctuary is greatest (where they are most protected from hunting pressure). These sanctuary areas may contain few does, yet for mature bucks, daylight survival takes precidence over daylight breeding. When it comes to harvest results how many does you have may be completely immaterial.
The argument over culling is also based on incorrect common logic. Common logic says 50% of a buck's antler genetics come from his father and 50% from his mother hence removing small antlered males so they can't pass on their small antler genetics has to have some positive affect. Yet antler genetics are far, FAR more complex than that and bucks may not get 50% of their antler genetics from their father. In fact, they may get little antler genetics from their father hence culling does absolutely nothing towards improving a local herd's antler genetics.
All this comes back to the current argument--buck limits. Common logic says that lower buck limits force hunters to be more selective about what they harvest. This may have been true in the past, but the data is quite clear this is not the case anymore. If it were true, the states with the lowest buck limits would have the lowest percent of their harvest being young bucks (hunters would pass young bucks and selectively harvest older bucks). Yet this isn't the case. KY has a 1 buck limit while TN has had a 3 buck limit in two of the three management Units for several years. Common logic says hunters in KY will kill few yearling bucks while hunters in TN with more liberal limits will kill more yearling bucks. However consistently hunters in KY kill the same or a higher percentage of yearlings than TN hunters do. The common logic of hunters being forced to be more selective by lower limits simply isn't accurate. It's becoming obvious that hunters have changed their attitudes and those that care about harvesting big bucks are already voluntarily passing up young bucks, no matter the limits. Limits are no longer the driving force in what size/age bucks hunters decide to kill.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1794492 - 02/17/10 10:23 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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BigWes50
10 Point
Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3207
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
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I don't have proof that it will work but do you have proof that it will not?
_________________________
Just as the deer can suddenly materialize in the woods, "Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44)
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#1794699 - 02/17/10 12:30 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BigWes50]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I don't have proof that it will work but do you have proof that it will not?
Strong suggestion that it will not. Again, look at KY. They are not killing more older bucks with a lower buck limit.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1794736 - 02/17/10 12:44 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Again, look at KY. They are not killing more older bucks with a lower buck limit.
But, are the bucks they are killing, OLDER?
And just how signficant is the percentage of yearlings?
Isn't the TOTAL male harvest relative the population much more important than how many were yearlings?
How about the ratio of males harvested to females harvested?
Isn't that more important than how many of the bucks were yearlings?
If the buck limit is three, and we change it to two (and change nothing else), my uncommon logic says we will make improvements on herd health, no matter whether the percent of yearlings changes or not.
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#1794747 - 02/17/10 12:51 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Again, look at KY. They are not killing more older bucks with a lower buck limit. But, are the bucks they are killing, OLDER?
I'm not sure I understand your question Wes.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1794749 - 02/17/10 12:53 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Perhaps KY is killing more 4 1/2's than TN?
Say TN kills more 2 1/2 and older bucks than KY.
That doesn't mean KY isn't killing more 4 1/2 and older bucks than TN.
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#1794757 - 02/17/10 12:57 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 16993
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Just saying the percent yearlings doesn't matter as much as some seem to think.
1,000 yearlings is 33% of 3,000 harvested bucks;
1,000 yearlings is 50% of 2,000 harvested bucks.
If you had 4,000 bucks, would you rather see 2,000 or 3,000 of them killed each year? And in this case, would 50% yearlings be better than 33% yearlings?
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#1794759 - 02/17/10 12:58 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BigWes50
10 Point
Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3207
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
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Does anybody have the data that shows total deer killed in Ky and in TN, then compare KY and TN total doe harvest as a percent of total harvest in both states?
_________________________
Just as the deer can suddenly materialize in the woods, "Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44)
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#1794773 - 02/17/10 01:05 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point
Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 3869
Loc: Hardin, Co.
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I don't have proof that it will work but do you have proof that it will not? Strong suggestion that it will not. Again, look at KY. They are not killing more older bucks with a lower buck limit.
If you compare other states data to TN's, then there is a strong suggestion that their lower limits and restrictions are working, as far as killing more older deer than we are.
_________________________
" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold
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#1794800 - 02/17/10 01:16 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
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Winchester
Non-Typical
Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25247
Loc: TN
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Originally Posted By: BSK
Again, look at KY. They are not killing more older bucks with a lower buck limit.
BSK, what data are you using to base this statement on? Just curious?
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#1794840 - 02/17/10 01:38 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BigWes50]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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Does anybody have the data that shows total deer killed in Ky and in TN, then compare KY and TN total doe harvest as a percent of total harvest in both states?
Here is the data you asked for:
KY Totals:
65,145 Bucks
48,440 Does
TN Totals:
83,505 Bucks
68,037 Does
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#1794847 - 02/17/10 01:41 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3989
Loc: jackson co.
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Perhaps KY is killing more 4 1/2's than TN?
Say TN kills more 2 1/2 and older bucks than KY.
That doesn't mean KY isn't killing more 4 1/2 and older bucks than TN.
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#1794874 - 02/17/10 01:53 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Setterman]
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Winchester
Non-Typical
Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25247
Loc: TN
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Does anybody have the data that shows total deer killed in Ky and in TN, then compare KY and TN total doe harvest as a percent of total harvest in both states? Here is the data you asked for: KY Totals: 65,145 Bucks 48,440 Does TN Totals: 83,505 Bucks 68,037 Does
Our #'s are obviously higher, but % wise there is little difference in just bucks vs. does. Now the age of those bucks is a different story. It is really interesting for last year because we had a brand new check in method, and it is being compared to KY's method, which has been publicly bashed pretty hard on here in years past by our guys in charge, as being very weak and not good data! Comparisons arent very good when you dont really know what your comparing on either side???
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#1794886 - 02/17/10 01:57 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Winchester]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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I wasn't offering any opinions, the man asked a question and I answered.
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#1794933 - 02/17/10 02:21 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: DWM]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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[quote=BSK]Wes and DWM,
But what you're forgetting is the whole argument against the new season dates and statewide 3 buck limit was that 1) it would cause far more bucks to be killed; and 2) it would cause a big increase in the kill of young bucks.
Neither of those happened. In fact, if someone asked me to find something "biologically negative" about the results of last year's limits and seasons, I would be hard pressed to do so, short of perhaps not enough does killed. But hunters 1) didn't kill significantly more bucks; 2) had the positive results of killing more 3 1/2+ bucks; and 3) killed the fewest number of yearling bucks in years. What's not to like about that?
Don't get me wrong. Personally I prefer a statewide 2 buck limit simply out of principle. But if pushed to state a biological reason for a 2 buck limit, I can't do it. No good biological reason exists at this point. Of course, we only have one year's data to work from, and making "grand" decisions based on a single year's data is always dangerous. No I havent forgot any of that stuff. I was just saying that this years limits did not create more 3 1/2 year old bucks. Now biologically the difference between a 2 and 3 buck limit would probably not even be measurable since our deer are already in good shape. Like I have said before I believe a 2 buck limit will give a higher percentage of hunter success and a few more mature bucks. I believe you yourself has said that your buck numbers were down this year. And yes I remember you saying several times you would like the 2 buck limit. I know there are several like you that do not hunt with every weapon and that is why I favor the 2 buck limit over the 1 per weapon. I'm just glad things are better than they were in the 70's!
Hunters have to make their own success, buck limits won't change that.....
Edited by gator-n-buck (02/17/10 02:23 PM)
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#1794938 - 02/17/10 02:24 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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TLRanger
8 Point
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: Nashville
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The best reason for a lower buck limit is it would improve the buck/doe ratio. A side benefit would be a slight improvement in the age structure of the bucks. This would only occur if there are more opportunities to kill antlerless (doe) deer.
I also hunt in KY where there is a one buck limit. I would prefer a two buck limit there.......one archery and one gun but at least in KY you get two deer per permit which isn't too bad. If you haven't heard, KY has much better dirt than TN.
_________________________
Twentynine Pines Hunting Club: Carroll Co. TN
Whitetail Lodge Hunting Club: Nelson Co. KY
USMC - Naval Security Group
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#1794999 - 02/17/10 02:57 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: TLRanger]
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BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point
Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6354
Loc: Nashville
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Thought ya'll might enjoy this...
The following is an excerpt from an e-mail conversation I am currently having with the Mike Tonkovich, the Ohio deer coordinator. Don't worry about the gist of the conversation, just take a look at the highlighted areas.
Because the majority of bucks harvested each year are 1.5 years old, the annual buck harvest is largely a function of the size of the doe population (and fawn crop) the previous spring. Since there is little adult doe mortality from fawning to prehunt, I suppose you could extend this to the prehunt doe population from the previous year. Thus, in the case of the 2009-10 buck harvest, it is most closely tied to the size of the prehunt 2008 doe population. In the context of harvest regulations, the 2009-10 buck harvest is largely a function of the 2007-08 season, as this would have determined the size of the spring 2008 doe population and fawn crop and ultimately the number of yearling bucks harvested this year. To a lesser extent, the 2008 antlerless harvest (and correspondingly the 2008-09 harvest regulations) would impact this year’s buck harvest too, since nearly 25% of our antlerless deer taken each year are button bucks. Buttons taken in 2008-09, can’t be taken as yearling bucks the following year! Given the above, how do you interpret the 6% increase in the 2009-10 buck harvest?
I just wanted to post that for all the folks that believe the "trophy" states are killing that many more monsters because the age of their harvested herd is so much more advanced than ours... 
Also, I'm pretty pleased with our 10% button ratio.
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If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.
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#1795008 - 02/17/10 03:01 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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Tree Tramp
8 Point
Registered: 07/22/09
Posts: 1560
Loc: Tennessee
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Ohio is definitely a trophy state. What is the buck limit there?
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#1795016 - 02/17/10 03:08 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Tree Tramp]
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BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point
Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6354
Loc: Nashville
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Ohio is a one buck limit.
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If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.
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#1795049 - 02/17/10 03:27 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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Tree Tramp
8 Point
Registered: 07/22/09
Posts: 1560
Loc: Tennessee
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 Has Mike seen any of gator-n-bucks studies on buck limits? 
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#1795078 - 02/17/10 03:40 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Tree Tramp]
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whistlinwingman
8 Point
Registered: 07/11/05
Posts: 1824
Loc: Morristown
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It is still a science. Nothing can or will be proven either way. All I know is that we are a whole lot further along than we were in the 70's and I have the utmost confidence in our agency to set the buck limits. It has not affected how many or what I have shot this year or the years before. If it was a one buck limit people would still be mad at the "Spike Hunters". We are very, very fortunate to have the limits we have. I don't want to see them any higher by no means, but I like the fact that I can kill a couple bucks every year.
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"I'm a great believer in luck, I find the harder I work the more I have it" -Thomas Jefferson
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#1795194 - 02/17/10 04:51 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Beekeeper]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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I posted this on the original post and I knew we would be talking about other states and what they got. You are comparing apples and oranges.
I don't want to hear that this state has done it and it has worked. That would be like comparing the size of bass caught in FL to the ones that are caught in TN. No matter what we do, the bass in FL will always grow bigger than the bass in TN. Thats just the way it is.....
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#1795312 - 02/17/10 06:00 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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Tree Tramp
8 Point
Registered: 07/22/09
Posts: 1560
Loc: Tennessee
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If you truly are looking for answers that more restrictive regulations have impacts on buck age structure/antlers in TN then look at good soil PI and bad soil HAAP. Both have big ole monsters in huntable #s. If not keep stirring.
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#1795632 - 02/17/10 07:50 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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DWM
8 Point
Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 1766
Loc: TN
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Wes and DWM,
But what you're forgetting is the whole argument against the new season dates and statewide 3 buck limit was that 1) it would cause far more bucks to be killed; and 2) it would cause a big increase in the kill of young bucks.
Neither of those happened. In fact, if someone asked me to find something "biologically negative" about the results of last year's limits and seasons, I would be hard pressed to do so, short of perhaps not enough does killed. But hunters 1) didn't kill significantly more bucks; 2) had the positive results of killing more 3 1/2+ bucks; and 3) killed the fewest number of yearling bucks in years. What's not to like about that?
Don't get me wrong. Personally I prefer a statewide 2 buck limit simply out of principle. But if pushed to state a biological reason for a 2 buck limit, I can't do it. No good biological reason exists at this point. Of course, we only have one year's data to work from, and making "grand" decisions based on a single year's data is always dangerous. No I haven't forgot any of that stuff. I was just saying that this years limits did not create more 3 1/2 year old bucks. Now biologically the difference between a 2 and 3 buck limit would probably not even be measurable since our deer are already in good shape. Like I have said before I believe a 2 buck limit will give a higher percentage of hunter success and a few more mature bucks. I believe you yourself has said that your buck numbers were down this year. And yes I remember you saying several times you would like the 2 buck limit. I know there are several like you that do not hunt with every weapon and that is why I favor the 2 buck limit over the 1 per weapon. I'm just glad things are better than they were in the 70's!
I completely agree hunters do have to make their own success. But success is partly due to oppurtunity. Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that having more bucks in the woods will not create more oppurtunity for more people to kill a buck of any age?
_________________________
Team Witness
Witness in the Woods
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#1795659 - 02/17/10 08:01 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: ]
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WestTn Huntin'man
16 Point
Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 10876
Loc: Benton Co.
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why wouldnt it work???????????????
It would provide more deer for the farmers to shoot with depredation permits. It would provide more deer for cars to hit.Also more deer for poachers and night hunters.
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#1795817 - 02/17/10 09:11 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: DWM]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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Wes and DWM,
But what you're forgetting is the whole argument against the new season dates and statewide 3 buck limit was that 1) it would cause far more bucks to be killed; and 2) it would cause a big increase in the kill of young bucks.
Neither of those happened. In fact, if someone asked me to find something "biologically negative" about the results of last year's limits and seasons, I would be hard pressed to do so, short of perhaps not enough does killed. But hunters 1) didn't kill significantly more bucks; 2) had the positive results of killing more 3 1/2+ bucks; and 3) killed the fewest number of yearling bucks in years. What's not to like about that?
Don't get me wrong. Personally I prefer a statewide 2 buck limit simply out of principle. But if pushed to state a biological reason for a 2 buck limit, I can't do it. No good biological reason exists at this point. Of course, we only have one year's data to work from, and making "grand" decisions based on a single year's data is always dangerous. No I haven't forgot any of that stuff. I was just saying that this years limits did not create more 3 1/2 year old bucks. Now biologically the difference between a 2 and 3 buck limit would probably not even be measurable since our deer are already in good shape. Like I have said before I believe a 2 buck limit will give a higher percentage of hunter success and a few more mature bucks. I believe you yourself has said that your buck numbers were down this year. And yes I remember you saying several times you would like the 2 buck limit. I know there are several like you that do not hunt with every weapon and that is why I favor the 2 buck limit over the 1 per weapon. I'm just glad things are better than they were in the 70's! I completely agree hunters do have to make their own success. But success is partly due to oppurtunity. Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that having more bucks in the woods will not create more oppurtunity for more people to kill a buck of any age?
We all know there are more deer in west TN, then E. TN. There are guys in E. TN that kill big bucks every year. There are guys that hunt in W. TN that never kill big bucks. More deer don't make better hunters....
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#1795828 - 02/17/10 09:16 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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JCDEERMAN
14 Point
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 7636
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN
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We all know there are more deer in west TN, then E. TN. There are guys in E. TN that kill big bucks every year. There are guys that hunt in W. TN that never kill big bucks. More deer don't make better hunters....
There ya go.....It's all about THE WAY YOU HUNT. Obviously, there are better opportunities on different properties, but 5 miles down the road may have a totally different story to tell. There are big mature bucks all across the state...dont know how anyone could dispute that....whether they kill them or not is a different story
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Be nervous, but fear no one
In God we trust
God bless the USA!
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#1796180 - 02/18/10 08:25 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: DWM]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I completely agree hunters do have to make their own success. But success is partly due to oppurtunity. Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that having more bucks in the woods will not create more oppurtunity for more people to kill a buck of any age?
KY and TN believe they have about the same number of deer but KY hunters kill fewer total bucks year after year hence should have many more bucks that survive from year to year. If both state's estimates of their deer population and harvest are accurate, KY has to have more bucks in the population at the beginning of the season, meaning more opportunity. Yet KY hunters DON'T kill more older bucks in number or percentage of the buck harvest. So if opportunity (number of older bucks in the population) drives hunter success, why don't KY hunters benefit from their greater opportunity?
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1796204 - 02/18/10 08:34 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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51 pointer
4 Point
Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 436
Loc: Tennessee
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Why does anyone want a three buck limit?
And how is it better for the Buck population than a lower buck limit?
If you want meat kill a doe, right?
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#1796211 - 02/18/10 08:39 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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DWM
8 Point
Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 1766
Loc: TN
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I completely agree hunters do have to make their own success. But success is partly due to oppurtunity. Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that having more bucks in the woods will not create more oppurtunity for more people to kill a buck of any age? KY and TN believe they have about the same number of deer but KY hunters kill fewer total bucks year after year hence should have many more bucks that survive from year to year. If both state's estimates of their deer population and harvest are accurate, KY has to have more bucks in the population at the beginning of the season, meaning more opportunity. Yet KY hunters DON'T kill more older bucks in number or percentage of the buck harvest. So if opportunity (number of older bucks in the population) drives hunter success, why don't KY hunters benefit from their greater opportunity?
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Team Witness
Witness in the Woods
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#1796377 - 02/18/10 10:12 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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DWM
8 Point
Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 1766
Loc: TN
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[quote=gator-n-buck]
I completely agree hunters do have to make their own success. But success is partly due to oppurtunity. Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that having more bucks in the woods will not create more oppurtunity for more people to kill a buck of any age? We all know there are more deer in west TN, then E. TN. There are guys in E. TN that kill big bucks every year. There are guys that hunt in W. TN that never kill big bucks. More deer don't make better hunters....
I see part of the reason you do not see what I am saying. You must not be reading everything all the way to the end. You are saying "big bucks" and in my last line I said "a buck of any age". More deer don't make better hunters but it could help the average hunter have better chances. I am like everybody else in this discussion, none of us know for sure what it would do here in Tn. A one year trial would still not show you the effects either. Plus any other change made the same year could be blamed for what differences that showed up.
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Team Witness
Witness in the Woods
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#1796421 - 02/18/10 10:35 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: DWM]
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BigWes50
10 Point
Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3207
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
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Somebody answer me this, When KY implented their 1 buck limit which I do believe was 5 or 6 years ago (somebody at any point correct my dates and limits) did they all of a sudden get better soil too? KY has put more book bucks in the last 5 years than any other state! Did they just all of a sudden get a bunch of bucks to come down from Illinois?
_________________________
Just as the deer can suddenly materialize in the woods, "Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44)
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#1796686 - 02/18/10 01:14 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: DWM]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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[quote=gator-n-buck]
I completely agree hunters do have to make their own success. But success is partly due to oppurtunity. Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that having more bucks in the woods will not create more oppurtunity for more people to kill a buck of any age? We all know there are more deer in west TN, then E. TN. There are guys in E. TN that kill big bucks every year. There are guys that hunt in W. TN that never kill big bucks. More deer don't make better hunters.... I see part of the reason you do not see what I am saying. You must not be reading everything all the way to the end. You are saying "big bucks" and in my last line I said "a buck of any age". More deer don't make better hunters but it could help the average hunter have better chances. I am like everybody else in this discussion, none of us know for sure what it would do here in Tn. A one year trial would still not show you the effects either. Plus any other change made the same year could be blamed for what differences that showed up.
I'm not about splitting hairs. I don't know many hunters that are against the 3 buck limit that are wanting other hunters to shoot "bucks of any age". The one or two buck limit guys are all about big racks and trophy hunting. don't get me wrong, I love big racks but I don't think we should punish the majority of the hunters in TN to fill our own needs. After reading all these threads on buck limits, its pretty easy to read between the lines.. JMO
P.S. I didn't have a problem with the 2 buck limit in Unit B nor would I have a problem with a 2 buck limit state wide... I'm not going to bash the regs. or TWRA about a theory I can't prove... One buck limit is a whole other story...
Edited by gator-n-buck (02/18/10 02:39 PM)
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#1796694 - 02/18/10 01:17 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: gator-n-buck]
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MUP
Non-Typical
Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 36218
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town
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After all, deer are deer, right?
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MUP
Amateurs: Built the Ark
Professionals: Built the Titanic
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#1796853 - 02/18/10 02:53 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BigWes50]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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Somebody answer me this, When KY implented their 1 buck limit which I do believe was 5 or 6 years ago (somebody at any point correct my dates and limits) did they all of a sudden get better soil too? KY has put more book bucks in the last 5 years than any other state! Did they just all of a sudden get a bunch of bucks to come down from Illinois?
The state records were killed in 2000 and 2004. This might of been prior to the one buck limit.
Kentucky Record Bucks
Typical: 204 2/8 (2000)
Non-Typical: 270 5/8 (2004)
Edited by gator-n-buck (02/18/10 02:57 PM)
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#1796984 - 02/18/10 04:36 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BigWes50]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3989
Loc: jackson co.
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Somebody answer me this, When KY implented their 1 buck limit which I do believe was 5 or 6 years ago (somebody at any point correct my dates and limits) did they all of a sudden get better soil too? KY has put more book bucks in the last 5 years than any other state! Did they just all of a sudden get a bunch of bucks to come down from Illinois?
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#1796986 - 02/18/10 04:39 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: BSK]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3989
Loc: jackson co.
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I completely agree hunters do have to make their own success. But success is partly due to oppurtunity. Let me make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that having more bucks in the woods will not create more oppurtunity for more people to kill a buck of any age? KY and TN believe they have about the same number of deer but KY hunters kill fewer total bucks year after year hence should have many more bucks that survive from year to year. If both state's estimates of their deer population and harvest are accurate, KY has to have more bucks in the population at the beginning of the season, meaning more opportunity. Yet KY hunters DON'T kill more older bucks in number or percentage of the buck harvest. So if opportunity (number of older bucks in the population) drives hunter success, why don't KY hunters benefit from their greater opportunity?
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#1797025 - 02/18/10 05:10 PM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: mathews338]
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Tree Tramp
8 Point
Registered: 07/22/09
Posts: 1560
Loc: Tennessee
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Well success % wise they dont have the boomstick seasons we have. What do we have like 5 times as many boomstick days as KY? Big difference in hunter success percentages if you use all the factors. As for # i know my success is much greater there so either KY hunters cant hunt the big boys or the data is questionable. I tend to think its a little of both.
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#1797938 - 02/19/10 07:23 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Tree Tramp]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Well success % wise they dont have the boomstick seasons we have. What do we have like 5 times as many boomstick days as KY? Big difference in hunter success percentages if you use all the factors.
All states with short gun seasons have higher kills per day than states with long gun seasons. And that's an argument against short gun seasons. It places exponentially more harvest pressure on the bucks in a short time.
I grew up hunting KY, and after opening weekend of gun season the deer were so pressured that hunting quality went down the toilet. That's one of the reasons I stopped hunting KY and moved to a state with better, less pressure-inducing seasons. My success has increased exponentially since making that move.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1798024 - 02/19/10 08:11 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Tree Tramp]
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Hillbilly Hunter
Killbilly
16 Point
Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 16982
Loc: Branchville
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Well success % wise they dont have the boomstick seasons we have. What do we have like 5 times as many boomstick days as KY? Big difference in hunter success percentages if you use all the factors. As for # i know my success is much greater there so either KY hunters cant hunt the big boys or the data is questionable. I tend to think its a little of both.
longer seasons give us the opportunity to be more selective because we have more time to hunt the deer we are looking for.
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...they never call me by my name, just Hillbilly...
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#1798051 - 02/19/10 08:20 AM
Re: Proof that it will work in TENNESSEE....
[Re: Hillbilly Hunter]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Well success % wise they dont have the boomstick seasons we have. What do we have like 5 times as many boomstick days as KY? Big difference in hunter success percentages if you use all the factors. As for # i know my success is much greater there so either KY hunters cant hunt the big boys or the data is questionable. I tend to think its a little of both. longer seasons give us the opportunity to be more selective because we have more time to hunt the deer we are looking for.
HH,
That's one of the good arguments against short gun seasons. They force hunters to be less selective. With a short gun season, if you want to take a buck you better take the first one that presents itself.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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