#1742453 - 01/23/10 06:17 PM
BGG & BSK, QDMA question
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1524
Loc: Collierville, TN
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Do you think, (or know), there is that much of a difference in herd dynamics between TN & MS in that MS has the need to protect yearling bucks statewide?
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#1742838 - 01/23/10 10:07 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: westtntoms]
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bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 40299
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA
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I'm not touching this one.
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#1742844 - 01/23/10 10:16 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: bowriter]
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RKenney
10 Point
Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 3633
Loc: Maury Co.
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You might need to ask MS wildlife people that question.
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#1742901 - 01/23/10 11:17 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: RKenney]
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BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point
Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6353
Loc: Nashville
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I believe both states have healthy herds in most areas. Also, I believe most of the biologists in MS would probably agree that the only way they would advise getting rid of the antler restriction would be if a tagging system was devised and implemented. Since there is no tagging system, there are no enforceable buck limits so the antler restrictions are the only sure-fire way to prevent the over harvest of bucks.
_________________________
If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.
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#1742973 - 01/24/10 05:23 AM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: bowriter]
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1524
Loc: Collierville, TN
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I'm not touching this one.
Cmon Bowriter jump in!
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#1742976 - 01/24/10 05:26 AM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: RKenney]
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1524
Loc: Collierville, TN
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You might need to ask MS wildlife people that question.
All of these guys have the knowledge and/or experience to provide the input I'm looking for.
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#1743041 - 01/24/10 07:06 AM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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I believe both states have healthy herds in most areas. Also, I believe most of the biologists in MS would probably agree that the only way they would advise getting rid of the antler restriction would be if a tagging system was devised and implemented. Since there is no tagging system, there are no enforceable buck limits so the antler restrictions are the only sure-fire way to prevent the over harvest of bucks.
_________________________
The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1743070 - 01/24/10 07:29 AM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: Football Hunter]
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1524
Loc: Collierville, TN
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They get their data from wma's and dmap properties.
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#1743096 - 01/24/10 07:53 AM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: westtntoms]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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ok,how come they dont use a tagging system?
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The best day to plant a tree,IS TODAY!
You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1743107 - 01/24/10 08:10 AM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: Football Hunter]
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1524
Loc: Collierville, TN
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Not sure about that. They did implement a voluntary call in system a few years ago but I doubt it gets much use.
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#1743108 - 01/24/10 08:11 AM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: Football Hunter]
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1524
Loc: Collierville, TN
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Not sure about that. They did implement a voluntary call in system a few years ago but I doubt it gets much use.
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#1743114 - 01/24/10 08:15 AM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: westtntoms]
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1524
Loc: Collierville, TN
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Thanks BGG, iwasnt even thinking of the implications of the no taggin deal.
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#1743391 - 01/24/10 11:03 AM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: westtntoms]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Just remember westtntoms that the MS wildlife agency didn't necessarily want antler restrictions. They were enacted by the state's legislature without input from the agency. Now that they have them, the wildlife agency has been working to make them more biologically sound, as the orginal restrictions were actually damaging in some areas (the best habitat areas).
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1743512 - 01/24/10 12:00 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: BSK]
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megalomaniac
10 Point
Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 4887
Loc: Mississippi
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BSK is exactly right...
It didn't come down from the MDWFP, it came about from the general public. The majority of the general public down here wanted the entire yearling buck population protected. The AR's are designed and vary by geographical unit to accomplish that.
It will be an interesting experiment statewide...
It has already been proven on many of the deer camps enrolled in DMAP, as well as a multitude of WMA's statewide over the past several years. I'm just not too sure Bubba on his 40 acres is going to adhere to the AR's- especially without a tagging system.
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#1743620 - 01/24/10 01:03 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: westtntoms]
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Setterman
8 Point
Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 1783
Loc: Knoxville, TN
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I personally feel like both states have healthy herds, MS probably has more deer then tn, and more bucks over 3.5 then tn, but both states have healthy and good deer herds.
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#1745077 - 01/25/10 11:07 AM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: megalomaniac]
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deerchaser007
10 Point
Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4207
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA
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BSK is exactly right...
It didn't come down from the MDWFP, it came about from the general public. The majority of the general public down here wanted the entire yearling buck population protected. The AR's are designed and vary by geographical unit to accomplish that.
It will be an interesting experiment statewide...
It has already been proven on many of the deer camps enrolled in DMAP, as well as a multitude of WMA's statewide over the past several years. I'm just not too sure Bubba on his 40 acres is going to adhere to the AR's- especially without a tagging system.
Whats gonna be interesting is how they present the data on how it did or did not work on a statewide level in few years!! As you said,.. without some sort of tag system in place,.. they have no way of data colecting from across the state.
_________________________
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Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
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#1745225 - 01/25/10 01:06 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: BSK]
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1524
Loc: Collierville, TN
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Just remember westtntoms that the MS wildlife agency didn't necessarily want antler restrictions. They were enacted by the state's legislature without input from the agency. Now that they have them, the wildlife agency has been working to make them more biologically sound, as the orginal restrictions were actually damaging in some areas (the best habitat areas).
Yeah, I remembered that, (only because you explained it to me before!). I was just trying to understand the reasons for different philosophies between TN and MS. It seems to me that BGG hit on it with the main reason being no tagging system in MS, therefore no ability for MS to truly regulate what is killed. I do understand that the MS new regs are biologically sound, but I would assume we could accomplish the same thing if a tagging system were in place, (as TN does).
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#1745229 - 01/25/10 01:07 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: deerchaser007]
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1524
Loc: Collierville, TN
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BSK is exactly right...
It didn't come down from the MDWFP, it came about from the general public. The majority of the general public down here wanted the entire yearling buck population protected. The AR's are designed and vary by geographical unit to accomplish that.
It will be an interesting experiment statewide...
It has already been proven on many of the deer camps enrolled in DMAP, as well as a multitude of WMA's statewide over the past several years. I'm just not too sure Bubba on his 40 acres is going to adhere to the AR's- especially without a tagging system. Whats gonna be interesting is how they present the data on how it did or did not work on a statewide level in few years!! As you said,.. without some sort of tag system in place,.. they have no way of data colecting from across the state.
I would assume they will continue to use the data that is avalaible, (WMA's and DMAP), and that this would represent a sampling that would be accurate to apply to the entire state. BSK could probably answer this one better though.
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#1745262 - 01/25/10 01:35 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: westtntoms]
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Winchester
Non-Typical
Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25229
Loc: TN
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DMAP is huge there with many many large single holdings of land. I know I have hunted a few Islands down there in the Mississippi and Yazoo and they were all 5 to 15,ooo acres on dmap programs.
I would suspect that a great deal if not all of their valid data comes from these type properties, which im not sure is comparable to the rest of the completely unmanaged land in the state. Most of these properties, the ones I hunted anyway, were extensively managed and much time and money spent on habitat and crops.
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#1745868 - 01/25/10 07:34 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: westtntoms]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Just remember westtntoms that the MS wildlife agency didn't necessarily want antler restrictions. They were enacted by the state's legislature without input from the agency. Now that they have them, the wildlife agency has been working to make them more biologically sound, as the orginal restrictions were actually damaging in some areas (the best habitat areas). Yeah, I remembered that, (only because you explained it to me before!). I was just trying to understand the reasons for different philosophies between TN and MS. It seems to me that BGG hit on it with the main reason being no tagging system in MS, therefore no ability for MS to truly regulate what is killed. I do understand that the MS new regs are biologically sound, but I would assume we could accomplish the same thing if a tagging system were in place, (as TN does).
I'm not sure if the same level of yearling buck protection could be produced through a tagging system or even low buck bag limit. Without question, an antler restriction protects FAR more yearling bucks than a low buck bag limit does.
The question is, is the benefit worth the cost? For those who kill more older bucks, it certainly is! But for the "opening weekend" hunters, who would be thrilled with any buck, even a spike or forkhorn yearling buck, it might not be worth it.
Antler restrictions have their upsides and downsides.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1745880 - 01/25/10 07:37 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: westtntoms]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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BSK is exactly right...
It didn't come down from the MDWFP, it came about from the general public. The majority of the general public down here wanted the entire yearling buck population protected. The AR's are designed and vary by geographical unit to accomplish that.
It will be an interesting experiment statewide...
It has already been proven on many of the deer camps enrolled in DMAP, as well as a multitude of WMA's statewide over the past several years. I'm just not too sure Bubba on his 40 acres is going to adhere to the AR's- especially without a tagging system. Whats gonna be interesting is how they present the data on how it did or did not work on a statewide level in few years!! As you said,.. without some sort of tag system in place,.. they have no way of data colecting from across the state. I would assume they will continue to use the data that is avalaible, (WMA's and DMAP), and that this would represent a sampling that would be accurate to apply to the entire state. BSK could probably answer this one better though.
Upward (good) trends in the DMAP data would suggest upward trends in the "open" harvest as well, although the exact percentages between the two wouldn't be the same.
Because they really put some good research into ther new antler restrictions, I suspect they will see significant improvements in reduced yearling buck harvests for those areas that needed it, and hopefully a reduction in the older buck high-grading that had been occurring.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1745905 - 01/25/10 07:43 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: BSK]
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1524
Loc: Collierville, TN
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Can you talk more about the research they did? I just assumed they used data from wma's & dmap.
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#1746452 - 01/26/10 06:59 AM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: westtntoms]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN
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westtntoms,
What they were looking at was the percent of the yearling age-class would be protected using various antler restrictions. The simply four-total-points rule worked fine in the poorest soil/habitat areas because most yearling in these areas didn't produce antlers better than spikes hence were protected. However, in the best soil/habitat areas (Delta Region) many yearling bucks produced antlers large enough to qualify for harvest. This was producing high-grading of the older age-classes of bucks (the "best" yearlings removed and the "worst" yearlings protected leading to smaller antlers on bucks once they reached the older age-classes).
These new ARs are intended to better protect the top-end yearling bucks in the best habitat areas, where yearling bucks can easily grow four-total-point antlers.
If you look, I bet the MS wildlife agency's website or MSU website will have detailed information on the actual research and findings. I've seen it in print form before.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1748989 - 01/27/10 03:34 PM
Re: BGG & BSK, QDMA question
[Re: BSK]
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1524
Loc: Collierville, TN
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MS has a summary report on their website. I've read that, it just summarizes why they made the changes. They also have a deer program report, which contains the data they used. I'm not able to open the report, they are mailing me a hard copy.
The bioligist told me they used data from their DMAP program, (which is included in this report)in setting the new regs.
I look forward to reading it.
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