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#1742084 - 01/23/10 12:02 PM Re: 2010 QDMA Whitetail Report [Re: BigGameGuy]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BigGameGuy
I also want to clarify my stance on QDMA.

I am a full supporter of folks who want to practice QDM on their own properties and I have led many folks to seek info from the QDMA. However, I've been having more and more problems with the organization and its followers trying to steer statewide or regional management plans. QDM is only accomplished when it is mutually accepted by all participants. Laws forcing QDM are usually uncalled for and for the most part, ineffective. Many times the "QDM laws" restrict hunters beyond the biological need for the area. In other words, it's not based on science (data). And that's exactly what was supposed to be the foundation of QDM.


Excellent post BGG. When the concept of QDM first started circulating and the QDMA created, many Southeastern States, especially those in the Deep South, were in dire straights. Deer overpopulation was a real problem and over-harvest of bucks and under-harvest of does were creating real social dynamics problems within those states' herds. At the time there was a big push to get state agencies to change their polices. I was definitely one of those pushing.

Although these ideas met reluctance at first, eventually state agency's DID respond. Now I can't think of any Southeastern State that has real problems in their herds. They are all being managed well.

However, there is a segment of the hunting population that wants states to go farther--beyond just healthy herds. They are pushing the states more towards forced trophy management. This, I and many other early QDM advocates, are very much opposed to. Now there's nothing wrong with indivdual landowners/clubs practicing advanced trophy management, but forcing it on everybody would be a disaster. Mature buck/big-antler management isn't for everybody. In fact, it would only be truly appreciated by a few (most hunters think they would like it until they have to live by its restrictions).

That is the "movement" within the QDMA I am opposed to. Again, practice it if you want to, but don't try and force mature buck management on everybody.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1742086 - 01/23/10 12:04 PM Re: 2010 QDMA Whitetail Report [Re: Double-D-Team]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Double-D-Team
BSK or BGG,

So let me see if I got this...

QDMA is good for a local land owner who wants to manage his property. So, I would not go wrong by joining the organization as a local property owner. I have mixed feelings on the whole thing.
Is it worth my time and money to pursue?


Yes, it's worth the time and money. The plethora of very good habitat management articles alone are worth membership. They have articles on habitat management written for both the big-dollar club and the small landowner/manager. Heck, I learn a thing or two from these articles all the time.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1742088 - 01/23/10 12:08 PM Re: 2010 QDMA Whitetail Report [Re: westtntoms]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: westtntoms
BGG,

Yeah, I know I was raised in MS and still hunt there, matter of fact i'm up a tree right now! I never thought the 4pt rule ever did protect the yearlings very well. My question would be how do they really know they needed to get more strict?


Just remember that MS's wildlife agency never proposed antler restrictions in the first place. They were enacted by the state's legislature without input from the wildlife agency. As Larry Castle, the wildlife agency director at the time, told me, "One day I showed up for work and found out we had a new statewide antler restriction in place."

Since the enforcement of this antler restriction, the wildlife agency found it didn't work well universally, because of vast differences in habitat quality across the state. The new antler restrictions enacted this year are the agency's attempts at more biologically sound ARs.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1742110 - 01/23/10 12:49 PM Re: 2010 QDMA Whitetail Report [Re: BSK]
AlanP
TWRA Biologist
8 Point


Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 2483
Loc: Tennessee

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If that article had been submitted to a "peer reviewed" journal, it would have been rejected and never seen the light of day in any scientific publication.
_________________________
If you don't look at the teeth, you're guessing at the age.

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#1742114 - 01/23/10 12:53 PM Re: 2010 QDMA Whitetail Report [Re: AlanP]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: AlanP
If that article had been submitted to a "peer reviewed" journal, it would have been rejected and never seen the light of day in any scientific publication.


Dang straight.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1742172 - 01/23/10 02:21 PM Re: 2010 QDMA Whitetail Report [Re: BSK]
deerchaser007
10 Point


Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 4207
Loc: Bradyville, TN USA

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BSK,.. care to explain your thoughts on forced mature buck management? I would like to hear BGG's thoughts also. This would relate to statewide levels of course,.. what is to much and what is to little?? Example,.. is restricting all yearling buck harvest to strict,.. or is allowing a 70% yearling buck harvest doing to little?


As far as the report,.. IMO,.. it is what it is. If they got the data straight from the agencies of the state, like they say they did,.. then thats what they are,.. just numbers. I think the real problem here is not the report,. but rather how TN was ranked. Again,.. they are just numbers!! We TN folks know we have a ways to go ,.. but we know we will get there!! AND,. i think most of the hunters that follow the deer management program and those that are in charge of the program know that in 10 years, those numbers will look alot different.
_________________________
QDMA member...Cannon co.
Guard your tongue in youth,.. and in age you may mature a thought that will be of service to your people!!
(Minquass)

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#1742202 - 01/23/10 03:21 PM Re: 2010 QDMA Whitetail Report [Re: BSK]
Chris Tripp
10 Point


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 3746
Loc: Brush Creek, TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
westtntoms,

The QDMA has gone through several phases of growth, from a small grassroots organization fueled by Southeastern university wildlife researchers and professors, to what it is today--a rapidly growing economic and political force in the hunting world. However, some of us "purists" question how the organization made that transition.

A concious decision was made within the organization to make this transition, and that required "opening the door" to more market-driven people, especially in the leadership. Because it is "where the money is," this new leadership opened the door to a different management philosophy. Although they don't completely embrace this group, the "anything is acceptable in the pursuit of trophy antlers" trophyist set was accepted into the organization, again, because that is where the money is. In my opinion, this group's over-zealous and questionable management practices are given too much of a voice in the organization. But because they have greatly benefitted the organization monetarily, many are hesitant to criticize their management practices and "antler-centric" view of hunting.


My point exactly and its too bad imo...

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#1742260 - 01/23/10 04:05 PM Re: 2010 QDMA Whitetail Report [Re: deerchaser007]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: deerchaser007
BSK,.. care to explain your thoughts on forced mature buck management? I would like to hear BGG's thoughts also. This would relate to statewide levels of course,.. what is to much and what is to little?? Example,.. is restricting all yearling buck harvest to strict,.. or is allowing a 70% yearling buck harvest doing to little?


My view on "mature buck management" is simply to have some in the population--basically an acceptable percentage of the buck population being 2 1/2+. If you get a decent number of bucks to 2 1/2, you will have mature bucks. Bucks 2 1/2 do not fall to hunters are frequently as young bucks hence some will advance to maturity.

And interestingly, the percentage of the buck harvest that is yearlings won't tell you that. What will tell you that is the number of bucks in the population versus what number are being harvested every year. If you can get a good estimate of both, you can get a feel for buck survival rates.

Of course, every situation is going to be different and may require more or less severe harvest restrictions. For instance, in a situation like PA used to be in, they had about as many deer as they did hunters, around 1 million of both. In a super-competitive situation like that, few bucks will survive from year to year. In that particular situation antler restrictions were not only warranted, but absolutely necessary to increase buck survival. On the other hand you have southern states where deer may outnumber hunters 4 to 1. In that situation, far less severe restrictions are needed.

The best policy--in my opinion--is to assess the condition of the herd, look at the harvest trends compared to herd density/composition trends, and then start with the least restrictive harvest limits you can get away with. Then assess the results. If the desired results are not acheived, move a step up in limit severity and repeat the process. But don't automatically jump to the most severe limits simply based on hunter pressure to do so.


 Quote:
As far as the report,.. IMO,.. it is what it is. If they got the data straight from the agencies of the state, like they say they did,.. then thats what they are,.. just numbers. I think the real problem here is not the report,. but rather how TN was ranked.


It isn't a matter of where the state ranked. It is a matter of 1) they used the wrong numbers, and when given the correct numbers didn't correct their report; and 2) committed the cardinal sin of science, knowingly compared incomparable data. They knowingly compared "apples to oranges" data and then created a ranking system based on those inappropriate comparisons.


 Quote:
Again,.. they are just numbers!! We TN folks know we have a ways to go ,..


I disagree. When looking at the best data available, it's clear TN has one of the best herd structures in the Southeast in combination with some of the most liberal harvest regulations and season lengths. We are there now!

And that assessment is coming from the person that a decade ago was THE #1 critic of the Agency's management policies. A decade ago I publicly raked the Agency over the coals on a daily basis and lead a hard charge of hunters to pressure the Agency to change. They changed, hunter attitudes and education changed (including mine), and now the state's herd is in better shape than it's ever been.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1742321 - 01/23/10 04:41 PM Re: 2010 QDMA Whitetail Report [Re: BSK]
8 POINTS OR BETTER
10 Point


Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 3869
Loc: Hardin, Co.

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 Originally Posted By: BSK

committed the cardinal sin of science, knowingly compared incomparable data. They knowingly compared "apples to oranges" data


LOL I have seen several charts and graphs from state biologist that use the same data to compare each state.
_________________________
" Some localities are willing to work for their sport, and have plenty. Others are willing merely to take what comes easy, and have little or none." - Aldo Leopold

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#1742357 - 01/23/10 05:06 PM Re: 2010 QDMA Whitetail Report [Re: 8 POINTS OR BETTER]
BigGameGuy
TWRA Biologist
12 Point


Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 6353
Loc: Nashville

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 Originally Posted By: 8 POINTS OR BETTER
LOL I have seen several charts and graphs from state biologist that use the same data to compare each state.


What comparisons are you referring to?

TN and KY acquire biological data from comparable situations (check stations -vs- processors). So in the worst case scenario we compared McIntosh apples to Granny White apples. \:D
_________________________
If given the choice between education and regulation, I'll choose education every time.

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