#1736431 - 01/20/10 11:31 AM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BlueMarlin]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Extremely large rubs are at minimum an indication a mature buck has traveled through the area. Concentrations of very large rubs suggests one or more mature bucks frequent the area. On the other hand, a lack of such sign tells you nothing. Mature buck "sign" is driven by more factors than just the presence or absense of mature bucks. Sex ratio, buck age structure, and deer density play a role in how much sign bucks make.
In addition, mature bucks present doesn't guarantee huge antlers. Depending upon the local habitat, the majority of mature bucks can produce antlers below what most would consider "trophy" caliber.
Honestly, the best evidence of mature/trophy bucks is sightings and trail-camera pictures of them.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1736437 - 01/20/10 11:37 AM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BSK]
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BlueMarlin
4 Point
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 131
Loc: East TN
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Ok, let me be more specific. I saw a very large buck before the season, hunted him all season long, and have no idea where he went or how to locate him. Would like to scout the surrounding areas, now that the season is closed, to find out where he went for the future.
Edited by BlueMarlin (01/20/10 11:39 AM)
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#1736449 - 01/20/10 11:43 AM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BlueMarlin]
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strutncut
6 Point
Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 759
Loc: Crossville
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Let your trail cameras do a lot of the work, trails coming out of nasty thickets. Try to locate feeding areas right now to see of he made it.
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#1736450 - 01/20/10 11:46 AM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: strutncut]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Trail-cams are your best option. Even if you found good "sign" how would you know if that buck made it or not?
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1736471 - 01/20/10 12:01 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BSK]
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BlueMarlin
4 Point
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 131
Loc: East TN
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Thanks and I'll put out my camera, but what about big buck sign. Anything else but the rub sizes and height to go on?
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#1736498 - 01/20/10 12:15 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BlueMarlin]
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Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25338
Loc: TN
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The very best sign is the sign he is standing in when you see him! The only way to absolutely identify a specific buck is to lay eyes on him or get his picture. Now you can most definitely hunt and kill good bucks based on sign alone, as I kill most of mine with nothing more than sign, as I hunt a lot of places I dont have the luxury of putting cams on. You go with the best you can find, the biggest/freshest rubs, largest/freshest scapes, largest,freshest tracks, and probably most importantly where you find he right sign, as most mature bucks wont spend much time where the rest of the deer in an area do, outside the rut. In some areas you have the luxury of long range observation and this can help some at specific times of the year, but again many times the buck(s) you are looking for wont show during daylight anyway! Learning to identify and hunt terrain features will pay you much better dividends vs. trying to pattern a single buck at a time, IMO anyway especially in the hills of East TN.
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#1736505 - 01/20/10 12:18 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BlueMarlin]
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foldemup
Spike
Registered: 02/09/09
Posts: 53
Loc: Hampton Cove, AL
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I mainly hunt in northeast Alabama and I have some places where deer will regularly tear up some pine trees as big as your leg. I put one of my bushnell trophy cams on one of these pines on video mode and was amazed at what all hit it.....please watch all four videos linked below.....I have everything from does, button bucks, spikes, tiny basket racks, to a nice 10 pointer hitting this one rub on video...prior to placing it on video mode I had many other bucks of all age classes hitting the rub including a 152 inch main frame 10 point that I killed two weeks ago......hope you enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCrhqnDKUd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnQxwPG46x4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=788i3D8rzu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBnqHkFUSe8
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#1736517 - 01/20/10 12:23 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: foldemup]
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Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
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Loc: TN
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Great videos, and they make it plain that there is much more scent checking and dispersal than there is actual rubbing going on. Notice also how much higher up the older bucks checked the tree, younger bucks didnt even attempt to smell higher up the tree!
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#1736522 - 01/20/10 12:26 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: Winchester]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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foldemup,
I've seen those videos before and they are fantastic. They exemplify just how communal sighpost rubs are. Once initiated, every deer in the area interacts with them. That is their purpose. They are communal "pheramone wicks" created (subconciously) to influence the local deer population.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1736527 - 01/20/10 12:28 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BSK]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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BlueMartin,
I realize it's not the answer you're looking for, but honestly, I could not use sign to determine if a particular buck survived the hunting season. The sign only tells me bucks of a given age range were using the area. To know anything about a particular buck, I would need to use trail-cameras.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1736533 - 01/20/10 12:30 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: foldemup]
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BlueMarlin
4 Point
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 131
Loc: East TN
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Excellent video foldemup. The bigger bucks definately rubed and scent checked higher up on the tree.
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#1736549 - 01/20/10 12:40 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BSK]
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BlueMarlin
4 Point
Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 131
Loc: East TN
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BSK, thanks and I value your input greatly. I'm not only wondering about that particular buck as I hunt other areas. I'm more interested in locating those out-of-the-way places that may hold mature (big) bucks. I understand to key on bigger rubs and scrapes and big tracks. Anything else that may identify the big boys?
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#1736584 - 01/20/10 12:51 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BigGameGuy]
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BigWes50
10 Point
Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3207
Loc: Chattanooga, TN
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Great videos! Two of those bucks looked liked mac trucks on sticks. I actually felt sorry for their legs! 
For real! Those last two bucks looked fully mature 2 me!
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Just as the deer can suddenly materialize in the woods, "Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44)
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#1736598 - 01/20/10 12:55 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BigWes50]
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MUP
Non-Typical
Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 36575
Loc: Just North of Chatt-town
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Cool videos! Thanks for posting! Some brutes in that herd for sure!
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MUP
Amateurs: Built the Ark
Professionals: Built the Titanic
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#1736736 - 01/20/10 02:32 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BlueMarlin]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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BSK, thanks and I value your input greatly. I'm not only wondering about that particular buck as I hunt other areas. I'm more interested in locating those out-of-the-way places that may hold mature (big) bucks. I understand to key on bigger rubs and scrapes and big tracks. Anything else that may identify the big boys?
I would place very large signpost rubs, especially in concentration, very high on my list of mature buck indicators.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1736862 - 01/20/10 03:38 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BSK]
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51 pointer
4 Point
Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 436
Loc: Tennessee
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Besides seeing a big buck in person or on a trail camera there are a few things I've seen that indicate a large racked buck. The 200" buck I took in Davidson Co. this year with my bow had left sign that was indicative of something large & strong. I had not seen the buck in person or on a trail camera. I saw no rubs on particularly large trees but rather small trees about as big around as a mans arm. These rubs had been hammered to the point that they were snapped in two pieces....and or completely pulled out of the groung, uprooted. I knew something substantial was there. Now mature buck sign like droppings and prints have to be present as well. If I see mature bucks with small racks then I usually won't hunt that spot unless I have seen other big racked bucks.
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#1737018 - 01/20/10 04:59 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: 51 pointer]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Besides seeing a big buck in person or on a trail camera there are a few things I've seen that indicate a large racked buck. The 200" buck I took in Davidson Co. this year with my bow had left sign that was indicative of something large & strong.
Wouldn't a 110-class mature buck be just as strong as a 200-class mature buck?
I promise you this guy is 230 lbs of pure muscle, and could do some SERIOUS tree damage, yet he doesn't have much rack.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1737046 - 01/20/10 05:08 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BSK]
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Football Hunter
18 Point
Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24708
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co
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good info,and cool videos
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You wont know,if you dont go!
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#1737202 - 01/20/10 06:18 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BSK]
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tickweed
10 Point
Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 3595
Loc: medon,Tn.
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Bigs rubs are great,but sometimes I believe that really large older bucks dont leave a lot of sign,mainly because they dont have to.I look for hugh,and I mean hugh tracks,as well as use trail cams.Cameras are well worth the money,as far as seeing what you have on your farm.I bought two moultries on sale at Bass Pro last fall,to go with my others,only 69.00 each,and I got a big non typ. on one,and later harvested him,a 170ish deer,which I never knew was there.No big sign present anywhere.Not a bad investment.Good luck on finding a big boy.
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The hardest thing about Bowhunting Turkeys is leaving the gun at home!
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#1737323 - 01/20/10 07:07 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: Football Hunter]
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utfan1
10 Point
Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 3617
Loc: cleveland,tn
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holy moly ,look at the neck!
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#1737564 - 01/20/10 08:54 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BSK]
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51 pointer
4 Point
Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 436
Loc: Tennessee
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Besides seeing a big buck in person or on a trail camera there are a few things I've seen that indicate a large racked buck. The 200" buck I took in Davidson Co. this year with my bow had left sign that was indicative of something large & strong. Wouldn't a 110-class mature buck be just as strong as a 200-class mature buck? I promise you this guy is 230 lbs of pure muscle, and could do some SERIOUS tree damage, yet he doesn't have much rack. you have a point BSK, but my thought was it would have to have lots of mass to withstand the type of stress it would take to do the damage i saw and considerable tyne length to be able to twist and turn and hold on to the small trees i found brutalized, i should try and go get some pics of the sign i found, it was odd
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#1737592 - 01/20/10 09:10 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: 51 pointer]
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RKenney
10 Point
Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 3634
Loc: Maury Co.
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I look for the height of the tine nicks on the tree, above the
main part of the rub. I am about 6' tall, so anything chest high
or higher, I pay great attention to that area.
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#1737640 - 01/20/10 09:44 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: Winchester]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17068
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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. . . . . most mature bucks wont spend much time where the rest of the deer in an area do . . . . .
Most signficant "tip" in this whole thread.
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#1737673 - 01/20/10 10:20 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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RKenney
10 Point
Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 3634
Loc: Maury Co.
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Agreed. Especially during daylight. Nightime is party time for
rutting mature bucks. Big and mature bucks are the most patient
game animal on earth.
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#1737903 - 01/21/10 07:27 AM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Bottom Hunter
16 Point
Registered: 12/29/06
Posts: 15553
Loc: Hatchie Bottoms
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. . . . . most mature bucks wont spend much time where the rest of the deer in an area do . . . . . Most signficant "tip" in this whole thread.
This is very true but one TIP that most hunters seem to ignore. Most hunters go hunt where "all the sign is".
One thing I might add to re-enforce this thought is this.
Every deer that I have ever had mounted, I only saw once....Most never left any calling card signs or in any way made me think that they were there.
Sometimes, the best place to hunt mature deer is where the least amount of sign is.......
BH
_________________________
There are some people who always seem angry and continuously look for conflict.
Walk away; the battle they are fighting is not with you, but with themselves.
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#1737934 - 01/21/10 07:48 AM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: Bottom Hunter]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17068
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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. . . . . most mature bucks wont spend much time where the rest of the deer in an area do . . . . . Most signficant "tip" in this whole thread. Sometimes, the best place to hunt mature deer is where the least amount of sign is.......
That was my point.
When the hunters move in to hunt the best sign, the older deer move out to where the hunters aren't hunting (at least during daylight hours).
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#1737963 - 01/21/10 08:01 AM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: 51 pointer]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN
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...my thought was it would have to have lots of mass to withstand the type of stress it would take to do the damage i saw...
Not necessarily. Antler bone is shockingly strong.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1738403 - 01/21/10 11:51 AM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BlueMarlin]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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BlueMartin,
That's the oldest buck I've killed. Toothwear indicated a "tweener" with some characteristics of 5 1/2 and some 6 1/2.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1738466 - 01/21/10 12:25 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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BlueMartin,
That's the oldest buck I've killed. Toothwear indicated a "tweener" with some characteristics of 5 1/2 and some 6 1/2.
Which means he was likely 7 1/2. 
In reality that's true Wes.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1738471 - 01/21/10 12:28 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17068
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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That's why I said it, you big dummy! 
By my toothwear, I'm somewhere between 25 and 30,
but in reality, much older.
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#1738594 - 01/21/10 02:32 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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westtntoms
8 Point
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 1525
Loc: Collierville, TN
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If we went by looks we would all be antiquated!  Yep, and I can hear BSK now looking at our photographs: "Can't go by that, or that, but looking at the juncture of the neck and shoulders, this one looks about 35, but the hams suggest 45."Yep, and I have the "hams" of a mature buck!
I guess it's a good thing we don't estimate age based on "racks"!
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#1739006 - 01/21/10 06:10 PM
Re: Big Buck Sign Question?
[Re: westtntoms]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59670
Loc: Nashville, TN
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If I judge by gut size, I'm super mature!
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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