#1734564 - 01/19/10 03:48 PM
Re: Once an 8pt always an 8pt?
[Re: Double-D-Team]
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tndrbstr
16 Point
Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 12157
Loc: knox co tn
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me too,..... 
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#1734654 - 01/19/10 04:36 PM
Re: Once an 8pt always an 8pt?
[Re: tndrbstr]
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ghosthunter
10 Point
Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 3446
Loc: chattanooga
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Simmer down boys..I didn't mean for this to be a heated discussion, although it has been interesting.
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#1734663 - 01/19/10 04:39 PM
Re: Once an 8pt always an 8pt?
[Re: ghosthunter]
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ghosthunter
10 Point
Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 3446
Loc: chattanooga
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BW, you said that a mainframe 8pt is a typical deer and a mainframe 10pt is a non-typical. Did I understand that correctly? If so, how did you obtain this information? I'm not denying it, I've just never heard that.
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it's a long way to the top if ya wanna rock 'n' roll
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#1734694 - 01/19/10 05:00 PM
Re: Once an 8pt always an 8pt?
[Re: bowriter]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3990
Loc: jackson co.
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When the antlers are a sole consideration, you are selecting for one trait. That does not mean a cull.
If you walk into a pro football locker room, and cut every defensive, 300-pound lineman with a johnson shorter than 4" that is same as selecting by antler size.
That is only one criteria. That is why most hunters are terrible biologists or managers. If your goal is antlers (TDM) that is one thing. If your goal is a healthy deer herd, that is something else.
Now most of you can talk about maturity all you want. But except for Wes and BSK most of you are talking about antlers. You are associating antlers and age and nutrition. Now take take antlers out of the equation and see where this thread goes.
Right back it where it started 20 plus years ago.
So you want to kill a buck becuase he has small antlers? Then lets cut the all-pro lineman with the small danglie. It's obvious he can't play football.
Sharp stick for sale.
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#1736123 - 01/20/10 09:09 AM
Re: Once an 8pt always an 8pt?
[Re: richmanbarbeque]
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Winchester
Non-Typical
Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25247
Loc: TN
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The number one criteria in whitetail management has always been...and erroneously been...antlers. Now tell me you don't hunt for horns. Tell me a six year old buck that is 70 inches is as valubale to you as trophy as 3.5 year old 150-inch buck. Tell me if both stood in front of you, you'd shoot the older buck.
I know I sure wouldn't. But Wes or BSK might. It has nothing to do with judging age. It is a matter of priorities. Antlers, in most managment programs, has always been antlers.
Actually I disagree Wes and BSK would both shoot the 150 class buck. I will say that I have studied bodies and age a lot more in the last three years. I would shoot a 6.5 yo 100 inch deer over a 3.5 yo 120 inch deer. Like Winchester alluded to a 6.5 yo buck is one bad animal. Some of us know a lot more than we let on. 
Good post and dead on Rich, BW is now just talking in circles, sorta like a bad politician.
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#1736148 - 01/20/10 09:18 AM
Re: Once an 8pt always an 8pt?
[Re: richmanbarbeque]
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bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 40306
Loc: Lebanon,TN USA
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And you alluded to antlers. So, as I said, that is your number one priority. It is also mine at certain times. But there have been countless times on this forum that various hunters have said they are hunting mature bucks. Mature means nothing but age. So why does the word antlers even enter the discussion?
I used BSK and Wes as examples because I knew they would understand what I am trying to say. I know many on here know quite a bit about deer. And in the end, it boils down to antlers...as it always has. To say differently is wrong. To say you don't cull a buck due to his antlers is a lie. What else can you judge him by? You can't analyze the mitachondria unless you kill him. And that, by the way, is what converts what he eats to nutrition. Nutrition, as so many have pointed out is important. That goes directly back to cell activity and that means mitachondria.
So exactly what cells produce antlers? Do they come from the buck or the doe? Upon what criteria do you select a "cull" buck? And how do you defend that choice without using the word antlers? If you do that, you just select for one trait and you have no idea what other valuable traits that buck has.
Now obviously, on this entire thread, as I often do, I have been playing the Devil's advocate. I enjoy doing that. Never was my intention to make anyone think I was putting them down or implying they were ignorant. If I did so, I appologize. My intention was to make you think, to analyze your thinking. To prove your point. So far it has not been done. The reason for that is because it cannot be done. We...none of us, know enough to do so.
We have made tremendous leaps in the last few years in terms of deer management, not because of feeders or antlers but because of biologist asking "why and how". The key to these leaps has been data. Hard, factual data. The problem to it has been two factors-pens and antlers.
Managing a wild herd, from a hunter's view has always been about antlers. From a biologist's veiw, it has been about data. And there is your boondoggle.
That's a scientific word 
This is a great thread. Let's keep it friendly...okay. Let it be a discussion, not an arguement. I'll certainly tone down my end.
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#1736180 - 01/20/10 09:33 AM
Re: Once an 8pt always an 8pt?
[Re: bowriter]
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Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25247
Loc: TN
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BW, if anybody ever said they culled a buck for any other reason than antlers, I missed it on this thread. I also agree that there are no cull bucks in existence, until they reach maturity. At that point if a fully mature buck has a small inferior rack, he is a cull and will be shot, just like he would have been shot if he had a big rack, he's mature and he's going to be killed if given the chance. I understand your rant and agree that you cannot succesfully cull bucks until they have reached maturity, and even then you are only culling due to antler size. And I also agree that it is most certainly all about the antlers, anybody that says differently is not being honest with themselves! If the antlers truly did not matter to people, the old does would be as highly sought after as the bucks, and as we all know this is absolutely not the case, not for anybody anywhere!
I will stand by my original statement, a fully mature buck with small/inferior antlers is a cull in my eyes! At this point however it doesnt matter because he's mature and will/would be killed given the chance anyway!
Antlers do and always have ruled the world of the Whitetail, they are the sole reason that millions upon millions of dollars are spent on them every year. If they suddenly quit growing antlers, you would hear very little about them in the future and many people would be bankrupt!
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#1736232 - 01/20/10 09:54 AM
Re: Once an 8pt always an 8pt?
[Re: ghosthunter]
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tndrbstr
16 Point
Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 12157
Loc: knox co tn
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BW, you said that a mainframe 8pt is a typical deer and a mainframe 10pt is a non-typical. Did I understand that correctly? If so, how did you obtain this information? I'm not denying it, I've just never heard that.
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