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#1710512 - 01/06/10 12:27 PM Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ? [Re: BSK]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25233
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: mathews338
don't get me wrong i would never go for closing the buck season but i think TN would come really close to those other states in terms of big bucks and the only reason i say that is because of the bucks that i know were killed when the seasons first opened in some areas examples are

oakridge
standing stone state park
jackson co.
overton co.
etc.

i list these areas because i know for a fact what was killed the first few years they were open, giants were killed

i'm good friends with a guy that is in his 70's and he killed a giant the first year jackson was open and said all the time that he wished he knowed then what he knows now he could have gotten a few more like that he just got lucky he said because they knew nothing about deer hunting


This is a very important post Mathews338. In fact, this very experience you describe (that was repeated in every state where deer had to be reintroduced) is one of the arguments for QDM.

The principles of QDM are basically three-fold: 1) allow the buck age structure to increase by passing young bucks; 2) keep a relatively balanced adult sex ratio by harvesting does; and 3) keep the herd density well below the maximum capacity of the habitat to support deer by harvesting does.

That last point is very important. Most deer herds are density dependent, in that deer health is maximized when the herd density is lowest and health is poorest when herd density is highest. The habitat only produces so much food, and only a small portion of that food is truly high-quality food. When deer densities are very low, such as when deer were first reintroduced, each deer gets a higher percentage of their diet as high-quality foods (few mouths competing for the best food sources hence each deer gets a higher percentage of top-quality foods in their diet). However, once deer densities explode, many mouths are competing for the best foods, and often these foods are completely eaten out of existence, leaving the deer to share only poorer quality foods. Herd health declines rapidly as this occurs, as the vast majority of each deer's diet becomes only low-quality foods.

The reintroduced deer herds, once the first deer season were opened, looked just like a well-managed QDM herd. They had an advanced buck age structure because no hunting had been allowed to over-exploit young bucks hence mature bucks were present. The sex ratio was balanced because no hunting had been allowed to skew the sex ratio through over-harvest of bucks and under-harvest of does. The deer density was very low because the herds were just starting to be rebuilt. And lastly, although there weren't many deer, they were more susceptible to harvest--even the mature bucks--because they had never experienced hunting pressure before.

So you had a few mature bucks that were at their maximum potential because of the low herd density, they were at their most active during the rut because of the balanced sex ratio, and they were easier to kill because they had never experienced hunting pressure before. This situation produce the record-book bucks killed at the time. If you look at every other state where deer were reintroduced, you will find the same pattern--a bunch of record-book bucks killed as soon as the first hunting seasons were opened.

Unfortunately, that pattern can never be repeated. First, hunters would never stand for the low herd densities required to produce that maximized health (and antler growth). We will never see the buck age structure like that again (it required an unhunted herd). And we will never see mature bucks so ignorant of hunting pressure.

Good post and Spot on!! There is nothing like being the first to hunt a place that hasnt been hunted for many years! Not only do you have plenty of bucks who have reached adulthood, they have little experience with being hunted and move freely during daylight hours with no worries! I will say enjoy it while you can because they learn very quickly!!! This is also exactly where people think you kill too many, because after the first year of hunting the deer become much less visible, and many hunters immediately jump to, we killed too many, their just not here like they USED to be. When in fact all that has happened is they got an education!

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#1710674 - 01/06/10 02:15 PM Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ? [Re: BSK]
megalomaniac
10 Point


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 4887
Loc: Mississippi

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
...we are seeing the effects of two things: 1) the herd density is lower than it was in 2006, before the EHD outbreak; and 2) the warm weather we had during the MZ season reduced deer movement and potential harvests during the peak of the rut for Middle TN. These two factors combined probably account for most of the decline in harvest this year.


Agree 100%.

God help us if we have a ML season with temps in the 20's \:\)

As it stands, and barring another disease outbreak, the herd age structure going into next year will be great! I was really worried we'd have a great year this year, fully expected to kill the number of 3.5 yr old and older bucks we did, but expected a big jump in yearling buck harvest as well. The net result would have been a significant reduction in the age structure for 2010 and 2011. As of right now, there will be plenty of yearling bucks to be recruited into older age classes making for some fun hunting next year.

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#1711132 - 01/06/10 06:42 PM Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ? [Re: Winchester]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Winchester
I will say enjoy it while you can because they learn very quickly!!! This is also exactly where people think you kill too many, because after the first year of hunting the deer become much less visible, and many hunters immediately jump to, we killed too many, their just not here like they USED to be. When in fact all that has happened is they got an education!


This is exactly what happens once a county is placed in Unit L. Suddenly it's open season on a group of deer that hadn't received significant harvest pressure in the past--adult does. Before the county is moved to Unit L, does don't receive enough pressure to drive them nocurnal. They can be seen wandering around in broad daylight in great numbers.

However, after a year or two of being shot at under Unit L rules, suddenly the does vanish. Their numbers probably are a little lower, but it is their change in behavior due to education that is the primary culprit. And then hunters react to the sudden decrease in doe sightings by screaming "We've killed all the does!" No, you've just educated them and they've reacted accordingly (gone nocturnal just like over-pressured bucks do)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1711292 - 01/06/10 07:36 PM Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ? [Re: gator-n-buck]
Boone 58
16 Point


Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 13533
Loc: Food Plot

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I like what the TWRA has done, however i want the week after the first gun season returned back to MZ as this was really crucial this time as it has been in the past to our Rut hunting. I am not for the bow season being almost two weeks before the second gun season.
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#1712176 - 01/07/10 08:44 AM Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ? [Re: Boone 58]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: camoman270
I like what the TWRA has done, however i want the week after the first gun season returned back to MZ as this was really crucial this time as it has been in the past to our Rut hunting. I am not for the bow season being almost two weeks before the second gun season.


Welcome to the the world we in Middle TN have lived with for a long time! The one and in some years tow-week gap between 1st MZ and 1st gun is our peak rut time, and we pushed hard to get that gap filled with some type of firearms hunting. Good luck getting it back from us!! We're going to fight tooth and nail to keep it. ;\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1712187 - 01/07/10 08:46 AM Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ? [Re: BSK]
Football Hunter
18 Point


Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 24550
Loc: Wilson Co/Perry Co

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: camoman270
I like what the TWRA has done, however i want the week after the first gun season returned back to MZ as this was really crucial this time as it has been in the past to our Rut hunting. I am not for the bow season being almost two weeks before the second gun season.


Welcome to the the world we in Middle TN have lived with for a long time! The one and in some years tow-week gap between 1st MZ and 1st gun is our peak rut time, and we pushed hard to get that gap filled with some type of firearms hunting. Good luck getting it back from us!! We're going to fight tooth and nail to keep it. ;\)
Bow Hater \:\)
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#1712228 - 01/07/10 09:01 AM Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ? [Re: Football Hunter]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
Bow Hater \:\)


That's me!!! \:D
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1712242 - 01/07/10 09:06 AM Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ? [Re: BSK]
richmanbarbeque
16 Point


Registered: 07/17/03
Posts: 12771
Loc: Middle, Tn

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
Bow Hater \:\)


That's me!!! \:D


just pure evil!

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#1712265 - 01/07/10 09:14 AM Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ? [Re: richmanbarbeque]
BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical


Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59548
Loc: Nashville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: richmanbarbeque
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
Bow Hater \:\)


That's me!!! \:D


just pure evil!


That's what my wife says. ;\)
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan

"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James

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#1712331 - 01/07/10 09:30 AM Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ? [Re: BSK]
Winchester
Non-Typical


Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25233
Loc: TN

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 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: richmanbarbeque
 Originally Posted By: BSK
 Originally Posted By: Football Hunter
Bow Hater \:\)


That's me!!! \:D


just pure evil!


That's what my wife says. ;\)

I liked the Bow myself, but as I have said before, just as long as its open for something. BSK if you think you had it bad for years with Archery being open, Unit B was flippin CLOSED completely on those weeks!! The best change they have made in many years was opening those closed weeks here in Unit B, IMO anyway!

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