#1710215 - 01/06/10 09:37 AM
Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ?
[Re: Winchester]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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I think one of two things is happening, either we are still seeing the negative effects of the 2007 year where so many things were bad, EHD, Drought, late freeze, no mast crop, etc. Or maybe TN has topped out and is now leveling back off in terms of Total harvest, as this appears this will be the 3'rd year in a row of declining total harvest. We have had so many things change in the last 3 years its hard to compare them to the past. For example, all the negative affects I mentioned earlier, paired with increased opportunity for hunters, as well as increasing the buck limit, and in some parts of the season and state it was increased by a HUGE amount. It would appear the harvest should have increased, but yet its decreasing. Question is, are these changes due to hunters being more selective and using self restraint (which I think is happening) or is it due to the deer herd???
As for harvest totals, I think we are seeing the effects of two things: 1) the herd density is lower than it was in 2006, before the EHD outbreak; and 2) the warm weather we had during the MZ season reduced deer movement and potential harvests during the peak of the rut for Middle TN. These two factors combined probably account for most of the decline in harvest this year.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1710232 - 01/06/10 09:48 AM
Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ?
[Re: BSK]
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Winchester
Non-Typical
Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 25247
Loc: TN
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I think one of two things is happening, either we are still seeing the negative effects of the 2007 year where so many things were bad, EHD, Drought, late freeze, no mast crop, etc. Or maybe TN has topped out and is now leveling back off in terms of Total harvest, as this appears this will be the 3'rd year in a row of declining total harvest. We have had so many things change in the last 3 years its hard to compare them to the past. For example, all the negative affects I mentioned earlier, paired with increased opportunity for hunters, as well as increasing the buck limit, and in some parts of the season and state it was increased by a HUGE amount. It would appear the harvest should have increased, but yet its decreasing. Question is, are these changes due to hunters being more selective and using self restraint (which I think is happening) or is it due to the deer herd??? As for harvest totals, I think we are seeing the effects of two things: 1) the herd density is lower than it was in 2006, before the EHD outbreak; and 2) the warm weather we had during the MZ season reduced deer movement and potential harvests during the peak of the rut for Middle TN. These two factors combined probably account for most of the decline in harvest this year. I agree, we definitely have some things at work here in the last few years, if not, with all the increased opportunity and buck limits, we should have saw increases not decreases. I think TN hunters are on the right track with the right frame of mind. I think we are slowly accomplishing a lot of good things without having to put restrictions in place to accomplish them.
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#1710244 - 01/06/10 09:52 AM
Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ?
[Re: Yodel Dog]
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Cy
6 Point
Registered: 09/20/09
Posts: 740
Loc: Wears Valley & Cannon County
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I think most are surprised by the results. It appears we killed the highest number of 3 1/2+ year-old bucks ever, and the lowest number of yearlings in decades. Maybe because there were less yearlings to kill. I saw fewer than I've ever seen. Fewer does to get bred during the 07 EHD outbreak, would equal fewer 1 1/2 year olds this year. Just a thought.
I had just the opposite experience. I didn't see any effect of drought or EHD, except it seemed that I saw fewer does and fewer 1.5 bucks. (In fact, in 06, 07, 08 I was very concerned that I saw almost no 1.5 bucks.) But there were several better bucks I saw in the woods or caught on camera.
This year, on the two farms we hunt (my brother hunts a couple of weekends, other than that it's just me) we only took one buck, only 3.5+ buck seen in the woods, and only caught one or two more on camera. But there were does, spikes and forks running everywhere. Significantly different experience.
I think we have to keep reminding ourselves that on our properties we only get the tiniest peak at what is going on statewide. If I accepted that my experience was representative of the whole, I'd be really concerned. I'm not. We had a great mast crop, hopefully we'll get good recruitment, and next year should be even better.
_________________________
Semper Gumby
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#1710262 - 01/06/10 10:05 AM
Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ?
[Re: Cy]
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Yodel Dog
8 Point
Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1087
Loc: Mid Tn
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I think most are surprised by the results. It appears we killed the highest number of 3 1/2+ year-old bucks ever, and the lowest number of yearlings in decades. Maybe because there were less yearlings to kill. I saw fewer than I've ever seen. Fewer does to get bred during the 07 EHD outbreak, would equal fewer 1 1/2 year olds this year. Just a thought. I had just the opposite experience. I didn't see any effect of drought or EHD, except it seemed that I saw fewer does and fewer 1.5 bucks. (In fact, in 06, 07, 08 I was very concerned that I saw almost no 1.5 bucks.) But there were several better bucks I saw in the woods or caught on camera. This year, on the two farms we hunt (my brother hunts a couple of weekends, other than that it's just me) we only took one buck, only 3.5+ buck seen in the woods, and only caught one or two more on camera. But there were does, spikes and forks running everywhere. Significantly different experience. I think we have to keep reminding ourselves that on our properties we only get the tiniest peak at what is going on statewide. If I accepted that my experience was representative of the whole, I'd be really concerned. I'm not. We had a great mast crop, hopefully we'll get good recruitment, and next year should be even better.
I saw more does with fawns than I've probably ever seen. I have one doe with twin button buck fawns. It just seems the 1 1/2 year old bucks are not there. By what I've seen this year, I should have plenty of 1 1/2 year olds next season.
_________________________
"...Shooting a deer is like shooting a cow..." Phil Robertson
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#1710317 - 01/06/10 10:43 AM
Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ?
[Re: Yodel Dog]
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Right_Tackle74
4 Point
Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 294
Loc: Loudon, TN, USA
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How someone who practices QDMA in West Tennessee has nothing to do with my brown and it's down goals in Loudon County. Seriously, everyone should hunt the way they feel is ethical, and by the law. I'm just as thrilled shooting a spike as I am a 120" class 8 point. To me Deer is Deer. I think the TWRA got it right this year by not cheating unit B Hunters out of that 3rd Buck tag that we've been paying the same price as Unit A hunters for years.
Edited by Right_Tackle74 (01/06/10 10:46 AM)
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#1710344 - 01/06/10 10:56 AM
Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ?
[Re: Right_Tackle74]
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gator-n-buck
16 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 14908
Loc: Knox, TN / Palatka, FL
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How someone who practices QDMA in West Tennessee has nothing to do with my brown and it's down goals in Loudon County. Seriously, everyone should hunt the way they feel is ethical, and by the law. I'm just as thrilled shooting a spike as I am a 120" class 8 point. To me Deer is Deer. I think the TWRA got it right this year by not cheating unit B Hunters out of that 3rd Buck tag that we've been paying the same price as Unit A hunters for years.
AGREE....
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#1710399 - 01/06/10 11:25 AM
Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ?
[Re: Winchester]
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mathews338
10 Point
Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 3990
Loc: jackson co.
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I think one of two things is happening, either we are still seeing the negative effects of the 2007 year where so many things were bad, EHD, Drought, late freeze, no mast crop, etc. Or maybe TN has topped out and is now leveling back off in terms of Total harvest, as this appears this will be the 3'rd year in a row of declining total harvest. We have had so many things change in the last 3 years its hard to compare them to the past. For example, all the negative affects I mentioned earlier, paired with increased opportunity for hunters, as well as increasing the buck limit, and in some parts of the season and state it was increased by a HUGE amount. It would appear the harvest should have increased, but yet its decreasing. Question is, are these changes due to hunters being more selective and using self restraint (which I think is happening) or is it due to the deer herd??? As for harvest totals, I think we are seeing the effects of two things: 1) the herd density is lower than it was in 2006, before the EHD outbreak; and 2) the warm weather we had during the MZ season reduced deer movement and potential harvests during the peak of the rut for Middle TN. These two factors combined probably account for most of the decline in harvest this year. I agree, we definitely have some things at work here in the last few years, if not, with all the increased opportunity and buck limits, we should have saw increases not decreases. I think TN hunters are on the right track with the right frame of mind. I think we are slowly accomplishing a lot of good things without having to put restrictions in place to accomplish them. i agree also congrats to TN hunters
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#1710425 - 01/06/10 11:41 AM
Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ?
[Re: mathews338]
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Hangnail
12 Point
Registered: 11/30/00
Posts: 6029
Loc: Murfreesboro, TN
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Where we hunt in unit L, there isn't much agriculture close so if there is a heavy mast, the deer are much more scattered. Numbers appear to be low until you go to the areas that the deer frequent regardless of mast production. This has been true for over thirty years hunting the same area. For anyone that hasn't hunted there very long, or often, the herd would appear to be on again, off again.
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#1710427 - 01/06/10 11:45 AM
Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ?
[Re: mathews338]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59553
Loc: Nashville, TN
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don't get me wrong i would never go for closing the buck season but i think TN would come really close to those other states in terms of big bucks and the only reason i say that is because of the bucks that i know were killed when the seasons first opened in some areas examples are
oakridge standing stone state park jackson co. overton co. etc.
i list these areas because i know for a fact what was killed the first few years they were open, giants were killed
i'm good friends with a guy that is in his 70's and he killed a giant the first year jackson was open and said all the time that he wished he knowed then what he knows now he could have gotten a few more like that he just got lucky he said because they knew nothing about deer hunting
This is a very important post Mathews338. In fact, this very experience you describe (that was repeated in every state where deer had to be reintroduced) is one of the arguments for QDM.
The principles of QDM are basically three-fold: 1) allow the buck age structure to increase by passing young bucks; 2) keep a relatively balanced adult sex ratio by harvesting does; and 3) keep the herd density well below the maximum capacity of the habitat to support deer by harvesting does.
That last point is very important. Most deer herds are density dependent, in that deer health is maximized when the herd density is lowest and health is poorest when herd density is highest. The habitat only produces so much food, and only a small portion of that food is truly high-quality food. When deer densities are very low, such as when deer were first reintroduced, each deer gets a higher percentage of their diet as high-quality foods (few mouths competing for the best food sources hence each deer gets a higher percentage of top-quality foods in their diet). However, once deer densities explode, many mouths are competing for the best foods, and often these foods are completely eaten out of existence, leaving the deer to share only poorer quality foods. Herd health declines rapidly as this occurs, as the vast majority of each deer's diet becomes only low-quality foods.
The reintroduced deer herds, once the first deer season were opened, looked just like a well-managed QDM herd. They had an advanced buck age structure because no hunting had been allowed to over-exploit young bucks hence mature bucks were present. The sex ratio was balanced because no hunting had been allowed to skew the sex ratio through over-harvest of bucks and under-harvest of does. The deer density was very low because the herds were just starting to be rebuilt. And lastly, although there weren't many deer, they were more susceptible to harvest--even the mature bucks--because they had never experienced hunting pressure before.
So you had a few mature bucks that were at their maximum potential because of the low herd density, they were at their most active during the rut because of the balanced sex ratio, and they were easier to kill because they had never experienced hunting pressure before. This situation produce the record-book bucks killed at the time. If you look at every other state where deer were reintroduced, you will find the same pattern--a bunch of record-book bucks killed as soon as the first hunting seasons were opened.
Unfortunately, that pattern can never be repeated. First, hunters would never stand for the low herd densities required to produce that maximized health (and antler growth). We will never see the buck age structure like that again (it required an unhunted herd). And we will never see mature bucks so ignorant of hunting pressure.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1710431 - 01/06/10 11:46 AM
Re: Did we kill all the young bucks ?
[Re: Right_Tackle74]
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mcnairy mike
Spike
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 48
Loc: west tenn
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