#1708658 - 01/05/10 01:35 PM
Age this jaw bone please
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graydw1
4 Point
Registered: 09/13/00
Posts: 115
Loc: Fayetteville, TN
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I've already gotten some "professional" opinions, but like other things, everyone has one. Please age this deer from the jaw bone pics please.
thanks
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#1708714 - 01/05/10 02:08 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: graydw1]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17068
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Your pics are lacking adequate detail for a good "guess".
But my guess is 3 1/2 based on what little I can see.
It also helps to actually have a jawbone in your hand, where you can not only see in great detail from a variety of angles, but you can "feel" the sharpness of the teeth.
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#1708742 - 01/05/10 02:35 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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hunter drew
14 Point
Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 7794
Loc: henderson county TN Lexington
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3.5
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#1708767 - 01/05/10 02:47 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: hunter drew]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN
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Can't see the teeth well enough. Pics need to be enlarged.
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"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1708845 - 01/05/10 03:30 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: BSK]
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A/M/G
TnDeer Old Timer
8 Point
Registered: 09/06/99
Posts: 1124
Loc: Drummonds, Tn
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I agree with Wes.
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#1709548 - 01/05/10 09:17 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: A/M/G]
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graydw1
4 Point
Registered: 09/13/00
Posts: 115
Loc: Fayetteville, TN
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About the best I can do with the pictures I have.
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#1709771 - 01/05/10 11:33 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: graydw1]
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30-30
4 Point
Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 229
Loc: Weakley Co. TN
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i'd call it 4.5
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#1709772 - 01/05/10 11:35 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: 30-30]
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pass-thru
10 Point
Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 3058
Loc: va beach
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4.5
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#1709919 - 01/06/10 06:55 AM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: pass-thru]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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The 4th tooth shows some wear, suggesting 3 1/2, but that may be due to the crests of the 4th tooth being broken off while the jaw was being removed. The youngest tooth in the mouth, the 3rd tooth, shows virtually no wear at all, which makes me lean towards 2 1/2.
That's a jaw I would need to hold in my hands.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1710127 - 01/06/10 08:47 AM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: BSK]
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recurve60#
4 Point
Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 343
Loc: Rock Island
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I think 2.5 also.
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#1710154 - 01/06/10 08:58 AM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: recurve60#]
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CopperHead77
12 Point
Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 6707
Loc: Hickman Co.
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I'd say 2.5.
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#1710310 - 01/06/10 10:39 AM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: CopperHead77]
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graydw1
4 Point
Registered: 09/13/00
Posts: 115
Loc: Fayetteville, TN
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This is what the "professional" told me. He's the Game Warden in Lincoln County.
Mr. Gray,
The third tooth of the lower jaw erupts at 2 yrs. and sheds a tri-cusped juvenile tooth. This new tooth is is a bi-cusped. Your jaw shows this has happened. If this tooth is worn to show the dentine to be wider than the enamel, the deer is 3.5 yrs. You jaw shows the dentine to be less than the enamel, so your jaw is 2.5 yrs.
Merry "Christ"mas,
Leith G. Konyndyk
And this is a pic of the deer, 200+ pounds before field dressing. Just hard to believe, to me atleast, that he was only 2.5 years old.
Thanks for all of the inputs.
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#1710364 - 01/06/10 11:02 AM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: recurve60#]
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easy45
18 Point
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 24108
Loc: Medon
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My guess is 2.5 looking at the jaw but it is hard to believe by the pic of the deer that it is only 2.5
Edited by easy45 (01/06/10 11:04 AM)
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#1710403 - 01/06/10 11:27 AM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: easy45]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Registered: 03/11/99
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Loc: Nashville, TN
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I've seen plenty of 150 class 2 1/2 year-old bucks in KY and the Midwest.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1710456 - 01/06/10 12:02 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: BSK]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17068
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Leith is one of the more experienced "deer agers" I've met among the TWRA field officers. I'd bet he's correct with the 2 1/2.
(Also note that the most experienced person who replied on your thread, BSK, also said "2 1/2".)
I've personally killed two 125-plus 2 1/2-yr-old bucks in Tennessee, and have a good friend who killed a 135-gross 2 1/2-yr-old in TN in 2007.
What did your buck gross score?
Keep in mind 2009 may have been the most ideal antler growing conditions that have ever existed in for most of TN.
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#1710471 - 01/06/10 12:10 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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graydw1
4 Point
Registered: 09/13/00
Posts: 115
Loc: Fayetteville, TN
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Haven't put a tape to him yet.
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#1710496 - 01/06/10 12:19 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17068
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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But let us not overlook that aging deer may be more an "art" than a science, and even the best deer agers only get it right most of the time, not all of the time.
Your buck may have been 3 1/2, may have been only 2 1/2.
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#1710538 - 01/06/10 12:37 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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Winchester
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Registered: 12/05/03
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Loc: TN
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He's a very good buck for 2.5 (rack wise) anywhere in the country, he's not off the charts with body weight but again in the upper end of the class. I would suspect he may be a very late born 3.5
Very nice buck either way and congrats!
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#1710690 - 01/06/10 02:25 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: recurve60#]
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pass-thru
10 Point
Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 3058
Loc: va beach
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The dentine level is uneven from cusp to cusp within each tooth, being wider at points, but all of the molars are showing some wear. Looking at the jawbone there is no doubt in mind that at least 3.5 and possibly older (the dentine on the 2nd cusps of both the 2nd and 3rd molar is wider than enamel). Looking at the buck itself, I feel very comfortable in my initial estimate of 4.5.
Here's something else to consider regarding "young" trophys from other states. I lived and hunted in KY for many years. Saw jawbones come out of a lot of trophy bucks. The wear patterns on teeth where I lived were signifigantly lighter than what you would expect from looking at aging charts. 2.5 year old deer consistently had slight wear on the molars and none on the premolars. We also sent a number of jawbones off to the state for aging. My budding killed a 140" 10 point. The state aged it at 2.5. There's no way it was 2.5. If you look at the jawbone, the wear could be considered light compared to charts for a 3.5. However it was quite heavy compared to normal 2.5 year olds for that area. In short, I think a lot of trophys are called 2.5 based on the jawbone that are in fact 3 or 4 years old. If I get a chance, I will most the example I just referenced.
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#1710715 - 01/06/10 02:51 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: pass-thru]
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pass-thru
10 Point
Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 3058
Loc: va beach
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Here is the jawbone I mentioned in the post above from a 140" 10 point that was aged by the state as 2.5. Unfortunately, this side of the jawbone was soaked in bleach so the dentine does not show up like it should. But notice the wear on the premolars; the dentine on the first molar is about as wide as the enamel, and there is wear on the 2nd and 3rd molars. Perhaps this might be classified as a 2 year old based on generic charts, but when considered in the context of the area it came from, I have no doubt that the buck was a 3 yr old:
Then compare to a typical 2 yr old for the area. There is no wear on the promolars, the dentine on the first molar is clearly narrower than the enamel; only the slightest hint of wear on the 2nd molar, and absolutely no wear on the 1st and 2nd cusps of the third molar:
Of course the contrast is more striking when the jawbones are in hand.
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#1710763 - 01/06/10 03:27 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: pass-thru]
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Wes Parrish
16 Point
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 17068
Loc: Knoxville-Dover-Union City, TN
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Of course the contrast is more striking when the jawbones are in hand.
You'll get no argument from me in that I believe individual deer (just like individual people) have different rates of wear on their teeth ---- AND deer in different regions have different rates of tooth wear.
This is part of why aging deer by tooth wear becomes increasing less accurate, the older the deer being aged. The older the deer in question, the more likely to be erroneously aged a year older or younger.
But I believe the aging usually becomes less accurate when you bias your assessment by including the antlers as part of your age guess. Not always, just usually. I prefer to not see the antlers for my initial age guess.
This past season, there was a buck repeatedly seen during daylight in my hunting area. He was repeatedly passed up because some thought he was only 2 1/2, in large part because he had a small 8-pt rack. And besides, we're told mature bucks are mostly nocturnal, right? (Yea, tell that to those who hunt on President's Island.) Anyway, I knew this particular buck was AT LEAST 3 1/2. Someone killed him in late December, and the tooth wear indicated he was 4 1/2. His antlers had a gross score of 95 1/8".
My point is it's hard not to have a bias towards either "younger" or "older", once you see the antlers, whether we're trying to guess the age on the hoof, or by looking at the teeth.
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#1710786 - 01/06/10 03:44 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: Wes Parrish]
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graydw1
4 Point
Registered: 09/13/00
Posts: 115
Loc: Fayetteville, TN
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That is the reason I did not initially post pics of the horns.
Thanks guys.
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#1711138 - 01/06/10 06:46 PM
Re: Age this jaw bone please
[Re: graydw1]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
Non-Typical
Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 59668
Loc: Nashville, TN
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Pass-thru,
I would put that top-picture jaw at 3 1/2, exactly for the reason you stated--the amount of wear on the premolars.
But I stand behind an age of 2 1/2, with 3 1/2 max for graydw1's buck.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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