#1696663 - 12/30/09 09:30 AM
Re: High fenced deer
[Re: RAFI]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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Sure, it has yet to be seen... because it HASN'T been seen. Once again, there is enough genetic diversity in the average whitetail to be without any concern for 15-20 generations. just wondering how if no one knows.How do you know? 
The whitetail deer species is one of the most genetically diverse mammal species known. Their social dynamics appear to be designed to produce maximum genetic diversity within localized populations. Now inbreeding would certainly become a problem at some point, but it would probably require hundreds of generations.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1696733 - 12/30/09 09:55 AM
Re: High fenced deer
[Re: BSK]
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AlabamaSwamper
12 Point
Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 5026
Loc: Southern Wayne CO and NW Alaba...
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Bowriter is right.
In order to get everything you want genetically speaking out of a deer, you must keep breeding it down and culling the bad genetics every generation while keeping the good. Linebreeding or inbreeding is absolutely the best way. Once you get the line like you want it, the genetics of those animals will continue to show up bigger or better.
Breeding parents and offspring or brothers and sisters with the traits you want will magnify those traits.
Deer would be different than say....dogs...as far as culling. It would be much easier with deer. Folks who breeds dogs must be ready to cull those that magnify the bad traits from the gene pool without hesitation.
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#1696742 - 12/30/09 09:58 AM
Re: High fenced deer
[Re: AlabamaSwamper]
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AlabamaSwamper
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BSK is also right. At some point, you will have to bring new blood to those animals. With dogs, picking the right dog, with as few bad traits as possible is key. Then for a few generations, you weed what bad they had out again.
Most folks who are good at this are either lucky and make very educated decisions when they breed. I'm betting the best deer breeders are the same way.
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#1696787 - 12/30/09 10:21 AM
Re: High fenced deer
[Re: AlabamaSwamper]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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AS,
That would all depend on whether high-fenced properties are actually controlling the breeding. I know VERY few outside of TX that are doing that. The vast majority just let Nature take her course inside the fence.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1696807 - 12/30/09 10:35 AM
Re: High fenced deer
[Re: BSK]
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AlabamaSwamper
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And by default and with good management practices, the same will happen. Of course, it will probably take a long time. lol
I wonder BSK, do most of the ones you work for or have been around feed protein heavily to their deer? Seems the ones around here and other places have a very expensive supplemental feeding program.
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#1696986 - 12/30/09 12:12 PM
Re: High fenced deer
[Re: AlabamaSwamper]
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mcnairy mike
Spike
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 48
Loc: west tenn
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I know someone who has hunted a 2000 acre fenced in club in wtenn and he told me they kill over 60 does a year on it and I just wondered on a small property how long would it be before new blood would need to be introduced. I have a hard time believing that Twra would allow hunters to jack up the herd without a proper study. It wasnt long ago that if you killed a doe they would throw you under the jail and now 3 a day. It must be trial by error.
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#1697092 - 12/30/09 01:15 PM
Re: High fenced deer
[Re: AlabamaSwamper]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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I wonder BSK, do most of the ones you work for or have been around feed protein heavily to their deer?
Nope, just intense habitat management with lots of agriculture, logging, warm-season grasses, summer forbs, etc.
In the long run, habitat management will always be cheaper than supplemental feeding, plus it bypasses all the negatives of supplemental feeding.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1697118 - 12/30/09 01:30 PM
Re: High fenced deer
[Re: mcnairy mike]
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BSK
Jerkasourous of the non-typical kind
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I know someone who has hunted a 2000 acre fenced in club in wtenn and he told me they kill over 60 does a year on it and I just wondered on a small property how long would it be before new blood would need to be introduced. I have a hard time believing that Twra would allow hunters to jack up the herd without a proper study. It wasnt long ago that if you killed a doe they would throw you under the jail and now 3 a day. It must be trial by error.
Again, whitetailed deer have extraordinary genetic diversity. I doubt inbreeding would be a problem for many, many years.
And 60 does removed in 2000 acres doesn't sound out of place. If the herd inside the fence is as healthy as it should be, the adult does will have massive fawn crops. To hold the adult deer population stable over time, as many adults must be removed each year as fawns produced each year. That means very high adult doe harvests and a very rapid turnover of adult females.
_________________________
"Know where you stand, and stand there" --Jesuit Father Daniel Berrigan
"There is no reasoning someone out of a position he has not reasoned himself into." --Clive James
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#1698971 - 12/31/09 11:43 AM
Re: High fenced deer
[Re: BSK]
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bowriter
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All of the standard principles of linebreeding, inbreeding and outcrossing don't always work with wildlife. It isn't like dogs or horses or even cattle.
Dalmation dogs were inbred to the extent they became retarded. Now I suppose you coud do that with deer if you had a small number in an enclosed area. No way it can happen in the wild or in a large enclosure.
All of the deer in TN today, are either linebred or inbred even though they came from various areas. The introduction of deer from another area is supposed to produce hybrid vigor. That will work with cattle. Deer aren't cattle. What you usually produce is disease.
_________________________
Constipation has ruined many a good day. Not as many as stupidity, though.
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#1699113 - 12/31/09 01:07 PM
Re: High fenced deer
[Re: bowriter]
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mcnairy mike
Spike
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pretty interesting. with high mortality rate among does it seems like only young does are always breeding. Didnt know if that has any effect on herd. I guess withoout coyotes it doesnt matter how smart they are.
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