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#1394047 - 07/04/09 12:21 PM Re: You ever know this? [Re: Radar]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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 Originally Posted By: Radar
I don't care what the law reads , but most common folks consider an inner tube a personal floatation device not a frickin' vessel .


I agree with that. The Commission needs to amend the rule. "Vessel" ought to stop somewhere around an inflatable raft and leave out inner tubes and pool toys.

 Quote:
The definition of a vessel would be challenged in court.


That's what I was trying to say in response to the "will it hold up in court" question. Enforcement depends on the definition stated in the statute, not common understanding. As the old saying goes, "Ignorance of the law is not a defense." Challenging the statute by saying most people aren't aware of TN's definition of a vessel doesn't work.

The PFD rule needs to be changed.

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/04/09 12:25 PM)

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#1394050 - 07/04/09 12:24 PM Re: You ever know this? [Re: B.D.]
Radar
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31145
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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 Originally Posted By: Brian Dunigan
I agree with that. The Commission needs to amend the rule. "Vessel" ought to stop somewhere around an inflatable raft and leave out inner tubes and pool toys.

bd


Okay , that is the sole point for this thread . I'm glad we can agree on that . \:\)
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#1394052 - 07/04/09 12:25 PM Re: You ever know this? [Re: Radar]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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Dang. I was editing when you responded. I hope I didn't edit my way out of our agreement. \:\)

bd

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#1394062 - 07/04/09 12:33 PM Re: You ever know this? [Re: B.D.]
Radar
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Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31145
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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 Originally Posted By: Brian Dunigan
Dang. I was editing when you responded. I hope I didn't edit my way out of our agreement. \:\)

bd


Yes you did . Go figure .
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#1394099 - 07/04/09 01:50 PM Re: You ever know this? [Re: Radar]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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Sorry.

I think we agree on the basic premise - the rule needs to change.

I believe where we disagree is that I would have the Commission change the rule, and you would prefer that the judge just throw the ticket out. I'm just saying it's easier to change the PFD rule because the definition of "vessel" in the statute is so broad that the judge would really have to make a stretch for it not to apply.

bd

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#1394117 - 07/04/09 02:29 PM Re: You ever know this? [Re: B.D.]
Radar
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31145
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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 Originally Posted By: Brian Dunigan
Sorry.

I think we agree on the basic premise - the rule needs to change.

I believe where we disagree is that I would have the Commission change the rule, and you would prefer that the judge just throw the ticket out. I'm just saying it's easier to change the PFD rule because the definition of "vessel" in the statute is so broad that the judge would really have to make a stretch for it not to apply.

bd


Not everyone has a copy of the statute , but according to the regulations that most everyone has access to , there is no regulation referring to specific use of an inner tube . Rafts are included .
http://www.state.tn.us/twra/boatequip.html


State and Federal Flotation Device Regulations
"All boats, including canoes and kayaks, must be equipped with one wearable personal flotation device for each person on board or for each person being towed on water skis, etc."
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#1394130 - 07/04/09 02:53 PM Re: You ever know this? [Re: Radar]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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The Boater's Guide is not the actual regulation. If I got a ticket for an inner tube, I'd use the Boater's Guide as a defense though, because the information TWRA is disseminating to the public is not on all fours with their regulation.

The actual rule just says:

 Quote:
No person shall use a vessel (which is not carrying persons for hire) unless at least one Coast guard approved personal flotation device Type I, II, III, or V is carried for each person on board.


That brings us back to the "vessel" definition discussed above.

All of TWRA's rules are available here. Now everybody has a copy. \:\)

http://www.state.tn.us/sos/rules/1660/1660.htm

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/04/09 02:57 PM)

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#1394169 - 07/04/09 04:17 PM Re: You ever know this? [Re: B.D.]
Radar
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31145
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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 Originally Posted By: Brian Dunigan
The Boater's Guide is not the actual regulation. If I got a ticket for an inner tube, I'd use the Boater's Guide as a defense though, because the information TWRA is disseminating to the public is not on all fours with their regulation.

The actual rule just says:

 Quote:
No person shall use a vessel (which is not carrying persons for hire) unless at least one Coast guard approved personal flotation device Type I, II, III, or V is carried for each person on board.


That brings us back to the "vessel" definition discussed above.

All of TWRA's rules are available here. Now everybody has a copy. \:\)

http://www.state.tn.us/sos/rules/1660/1660.htm

bd


I didn't see the definition of a vessel in that quote .
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#1394188 - 07/04/09 04:37 PM Re: You ever know this? [Re: JCDEERMAN]
Buck Nekkid
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Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 42423
Loc: Jefferson County,Tn

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geeeez
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#1394394 - 07/04/09 10:09 PM Re: You ever know this? [Re: Radar]
B.D.
8 Point


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1484
Loc: Hendersonville TN

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 Originally Posted By: Radar
I didn't see the definition of a vessel in that quote .




Repeating myself. That brings us back to the "vessel" definition discussed above.

Tenn. Code Ann. § 69-9-204:

 Quote:
(28) “Vessel” means every description of watercraft, other than a seaplane on the water, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water


http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp=tncode

If you read the article in the very first post, the TWRA officer explains:

 Quote:
Vessel means every description of watercraft other than a sea plane on the water used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on the water.”


Is it starting to come together yet?

bd



Edited by Brian Dunigan (07/04/09 10:11 PM)

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