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#1339654 - 05/24/09 11:01 PM Re: What says TWRA about this... [Re: ky doublelung]
buckdead
8 Point


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2274
Loc: southern middle tn

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 Originally Posted By: ky doublelung
Turkeys have been talking to the deer about the better dirt!


finally a reasonable explanation. lol.
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if your gonna be stupid you gotta be tough.

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#1341081 - 05/26/09 07:05 AM Re: What says TWRA about this... [Re: buckdead]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4018
Loc: Tennessee

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captain hook,
I have read post after ridiculoua post written by you. Your allegations that there has been a major die off in turkey populations, amoung other things, have NO FACT BASIS.
You are only arriving at your conclusions based on a few hunts in a comparitively small portion of the entire state. I seriously doubt you have either the profession, or the funding to make management decisions for YOUR county, let alone Unit B or the entire state.

You are entitiled to your opinion on what you think may have happened to turkey populations. Or what may happen to deer populations but MAKE NO MISTAKE...it is OPINION ONLY! Not based on scientific data gathered by paid professionals.

On the one hand people say there are Jakes being killed in record numbers, yet you say there must have been a "gap" in the population. Hmmmmmmm!!!

I say this to set the record straight. You are a relative newcomer to our state. I have been here for 45 plus years. IMO...TWRA does an outstanding job with what they have. I am not happy with everything...but then, I am happy with most!

102
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

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#1341119 - 05/26/09 07:36 AM Re: What says TWRA about this... [Re: 102]
captain hook
10 Point


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville

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102, first I am not the only one standing up and saying something about our turkey population.

Something has dramatically changed with our turkey populations, look at the numbers posted in this thread alone for proof. Not to mention harvests which continue to drop.

A few hunts???? You do realize that I am not just a once a month hunter, don't you? I spent 37 days in the woods during TN's turkey season this year. And pretty much the same number over 8 seasons, and have seen the numbers of mature gobblers where I hunt diminsh over the years. Now as I have said before, I do not think hunting pressure is to blame for what I personally am experiencing, as I hunt very remote places, where quite simply folks are too lazy to get to with any frequency. Granted only killed 1 in East TN this year, but that was because I whacked 3 in West TN the second weekend of the year. I did call in a pile of birds for others in East TN this year however.

So no I am not basing anything on a few hunts. And the fact is that the number of harvested birds has decreased in the last seasons.

I do not have the funding, but why would I? I do have the profession in a way, with an undergrad degree in Wildlife and Fisheries Science, and worked on numerous research projects while in school with turkeys in the state of Miss. Sure it is Miss, but turkeys be turkeys, if you know what I mean. I also, consult a dozen large hunting parcels in the state of Miss on proper management of everything from habitat to wildlife harvests, so for your understanding I do have some background in this stuff.

Many paid professionals don't know jack about anything, while others know a ton.

Jakes were killed this year in high numbers, too dang high IMO, a record? I have no idea on that, but every jake that gets killed is one less mature bird possibly to be in the flock the next year.

The population gap isn't in jakes, the population gap is in mature birds, hens and I gobblers I suspect based on mine and others experiences. I also clearly stated this as well.
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#1342138 - 05/26/09 04:12 PM Re: What says TWRA about this... [Re: captain hook]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4018
Loc: Tennessee

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Captain Hook,
Ditto for me with the following edits,

A few hunts???? You do realize that I am not just a once a month hunter, don't you? I spent 35-40 days in the woods during TN's turkey season this year. And pretty much the same number over 20 seasons, and have seen the numbers of mature gobblers where I hunt rise and fall (cyclically) over the years. Now as I have said before, I do not think hunting pressure is to blame for what I personally am experiencing, as I hunt very remote places, where quite simply folks are too lazy to get to with any frequency. I did call in a pile of birds for others in TN this year however.

So no I am not basing anything on a few hunts or years. And the fact is that the number of harvested birds has decreased...and increased, depending on a number of factors, in the last seasons.

I also,do have the profession in a way, with an undergrad degree in Forestry and Wildlife Management, and worked on numerous research projects while in school with turkeys/deer in the state of Tn. (Tn. Division of Forestry, Prentice Cooper WMA. I also, consult a few large hunting parcels in the state of Tenn. on proper management of everything from habitat to wildlife harvests, so for your understanding I too, have some background in this stuff.

Many paid professionals don't know jack about anything, while others know a ton.

Jakes were killed this year in high numbers, too dang high IMO, a record? I have no idea on that, but every jake that gets killed is one less mature bird possibly to be in the flock the next year. SO WHAT?

"The population gap isn't in jakes, the population gap is in mature birds, hens and I gobblers I suspect based on mine and others experiences. I also clearly stated this as well."

Again...no proof, just idle speculation and SO WHAT?

BTW, I have 27 years of hard core whitetail and Eastern Wild Turkey behavioral study. With STRONG emphasis on habitat, nutritional, and breeding behavior.

I know enough to emphatically state the following, "I can surmise, based on my years of study, that wildlife populations run through cycles. Highs and lows, if you will. THe cycles may be VERY benign in parameter. With triggers almost impossible to detect. Indeed, there may be so many factors contributing to a low, or high, that by the time it is realized, has long since deminished. While other "trigger factors" are as obvious as a mast crop failure and hard, long, snowy winter. To suggest that an actual "trend" is occurring with relative little data within a broad basis (large area of the state) is preposterous. And should not be taken seriously."
Granted, Therre probably will always be areas of ANY state that may need a reduction in a bag limit from time to time, but nature WILL take care of itself over time.

I find it amusing, that ANYONE on this forum, actually considers that hunters (so small in success rates/and fewer all the time in numbers anyway) have much affect at all on ANY population of animals.

102


Edited by 102 (05/26/09 04:13 PM)
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

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#1342233 - 05/26/09 05:04 PM Re: What says TWRA about this... [Re: 102]
captain hook
10 Point


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville

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102, I agree almost with everything you say above ;\) . However as populations cycle, and if a major fluctuation occurs, which I believe has happened, and due to natural causes I will add. Then the limits should not be raised during that time period. Why add more fuel to the fire in other words?

We as hunters can certainly impact the numbers of mature gobblers in a flock on any given piece of property. We may not effect the population as a whole.

If in 2006 at the start of the season a piece of property, let's say 500 acres, has 11 longbeards and 4 jakes. Hunters kill 6 longbeards over the course of the season. That year the hatch basically fails, the next year 5 longbeards survive from the year before, one dieing naturally and the others getting killed. And out of the 4 jakes 2 survive based off annual mortality rates among jakes. That leaves 7 longbeards on the property now, 2007 season results in hunters once again killing 6 birds, but the hatch the year before left no jakes in the flock due to hatch failure. So now going in to 2008 there is 1 mature longbeard remaining.

Hypothetical situation, but could easily be reality all over this state and any other state for that matter.
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#1342375 - 05/26/09 06:11 PM Re: What says TWRA about this... [Re: captain hook]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4018
Loc: Tennessee

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Not a practical argumant at all and you KNOW it!

It is a cycle!

I doubt populations have varied that much anyway!

102
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

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#1342553 - 05/26/09 07:37 PM Re: What says TWRA about this... [Re: 102]
RS
8 Point


Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 1278
Loc: Smithville, TN

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 Originally Posted By: 102
Not a practical argumant at all and you KNOW it!

It is a cycle!

I doubt populations have varied that much anyway!

102


No 102, it is a totally practical argument........if the 500 acres had a dome around it and turkeys could not come and go from surrounding areas.

captain hook, you complained all through this years season about walking miles and miles and not hearing or seeing birds in East TN, but yet you state above that you "called in a pile of birds in East TN for other hunters". So, where did this magical pile of birds come from?

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#1342852 - 05/26/09 10:11 PM Re: What says TWRA about this... [Re: 102]
captain hook
10 Point


Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 4340
Loc: Knoxville

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 Originally Posted By: 102
Not a practical argumant at all and you KNOW it!

It is a cycle!

I doubt populations have varied that much anyway!

102


Sure they can, and I have seen it happen before. Massive flooding on the Miss, several years ago spawned this very thing to happen. And properties are just now recovering, and that is with closed turkey seasons, self imposed by the land owners I will add.

You don't think the massive freeze from several years ago took a massive toll on our birds? Places that, that year and years prior I could hear 10-12 birds on a mtn side, became more and more silent, this year there was nothing but jakes. Jakes that had harems of hens. It wasn't just the immediate effects of the freeze, but also the mast crop loss the following fall. Many people do not understand how hard it is on turkeys when there is a mast crop failure.

You are right it is a cycle, and when things cycle down you can't keep chipping away from the bottom, or it may fall out. You don't keep spending money when your account balance cycles down, do you? Same concept.
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#1344124 - 05/27/09 05:30 PM Re: What says TWRA about this... [Re: captain hook]
Huntaholic
8 Point


Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 2086
Loc: Baxter, TN. U.S.A.

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Some of yall say its a cycle, in 25 years of hunting turkeys, I say its a wave. Once the wave passes I have NEVER seen it build back up to the levels it once was, PERIOD. 4 is too many. For those that say we as hunters have little to no impact, why dont you put up or shut up. ;\) Invite me, captain hook, and a couple more close friends I know to come hunt your place next spring. If we cant impact your population then I will give you my places to hunt for the next 3 years. Im growing tired of armchair turkey slayers who read well yet have little if any practical experience.
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#1344132 - 05/27/09 05:45 PM Re: What says TWRA about this... [Re: Huntaholic]
4onaside
12 Point


Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 5068
Loc: Jackson,Tn

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 Originally Posted By: Huntaholic
Some of yall say its a cycle, in 25 years of hunting turkeys, I say its a wave. Once the wave passes I have NEVER seen it build back up to the levels it once was, PERIOD. 4 is too many. For those that say we as hunters have little to no impact, why dont you put up or shut up. ;\) Invite me, captain hook, and a couple more close friends I know to come hunt your place next spring. If we cant impact your population then I will give you my places to hunt for the next 3 years. Im growing tired of armchair turkey slayers who read well yet have little if any practical experience.
If 4 is too many for you then DON'T SHOOT 4. This whole deal appears to be a dog chasing his tail deal, round and round and round. But it seems to me that the people who are making the most noise about 4 being too many will tell you in a flash that they shoot 4. That in itself is a head scratcher. Why should the state cut the limit if all of you "too many" people don't practice what you preach? And your offer is .......well, never mind. My turkeys are for me. I have a decent population for me! Impact your own turkeys, or not. I can handle my own thank you. And if you are "growing tired of armchair turkey slayers" then quit reading the stuff. What I'm growing tired of people hundreds of miles from my place trying to tell me what's best for me. That is beltway liberal stuff all the way. In fact, I think that I will follow my own suggestion and quit reading this crap. LOL
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