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#1299352 - 04/22/09 05:50 AM Depleting Gobbling Genetics???
ghosthunter
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I heard that down in Texas they use sticks to beat around rocks and such places to make rattle snakes rattle. Well, they've done that so much that they are actually depleting the genetic code of rattling, meaning that they are leaving the one's that don't rattle to breed. I guess you know where I'm going with this by now. Do yall think it's possible that we are deleting the gobbling genetics out of the flock. The ones that gobble get killed and the ones that don't are left to breed. Just a thought.
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#1299428 - 04/22/09 07:18 AM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: ghosthunter]
CopperHead77
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It's an interesting thought,don't know if that could happen,there are days when if the most closed mouth tom will gobble,as some point he'll want/need more hens and become vurneable at some point, the jakes that don't gobble that much,yes some gobble alot but some don't and if allowed to live each yr they'll be around to gobble.
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#1299438 - 04/22/09 07:26 AM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: ghosthunter]
Baxter83
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It sure as heck would make sense to me. I've only had one bird this year actually answer to a call. They'll shock gobble all day long, but not from calling. \:D
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#1299457 - 04/22/09 07:47 AM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: Baxter83]
megalomaniac
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It's not just possible, it's actually happening. Now whether that is from selective evolution or just birds becoming more intelligent is debatable. But years of hunting will definetly result in birds becoming more quiet.

Think about it, remeber ever fishing a pond that had never been fished before? Heck, you could take a bare fishhook and just about catch anything in that pond. After a few trips, you'd have to actually use bait. After a few years, you're down to using flourocarbon line and the most realistic baits to catch the same number of fish. And fish have brains even smaller than turkeys.

Same thing has happened with whitetails. Back in the day, a whitetail never looked up in a tree. Now they'll pick you out of a treestand in a heartbeat. Animals adapt to evade predators, and we're the adult male turkey's biggest predator.

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#1299550 - 04/22/09 09:03 AM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: megalomaniac]
gil1
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Are we killing the dumb or unwary gene in turkeys and deer? I often worry if those that are hardest to kill are passing down those reclusive genes.
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#1299555 - 04/22/09 09:08 AM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: gil1]
bigdeer
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Now they'll pick you out of a treestand in a heartbeat just put a fake body made out of clothes they will get use to it lol
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#1299631 - 04/22/09 10:12 AM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: bigdeer]
CopperHead77
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I just can't see there ever being a time when turkeys just stop gobbling....it's what they do,it's how they attract hens,at some point that turkey will gobble.
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#1299696 - 04/22/09 11:11 AM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: CopperHead77]
REN
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I dont see how it will happen. Comparing rattle snakes rattling and fish biting a hook is way different and really not on the same scale. 1 is for defense and the other is food to where they associate certain food or look of the food to danger.

Gobbling is part of a turkeys breading and natural sounds and they wont really associate gobbling to danger especially since the season is so short. In nature they gobble to get hens to come to them so if an ol boy isnt in a tree with some he will want some it is just part of breeding.

it would be like saying will deer stop grunting....just not really going to happen by hunting them over a month and a half season. Add to that the birds that are not hunted and roaming birds off property were the pressure is very low.
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#1299697 - 04/22/09 11:13 AM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: CopperHead77]
SALECREEKHUNTER
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Its the same as that mature buck. They are smart but will eventually slip up.
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#1299758 - 04/22/09 12:03 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: SALECREEKHUNTER]
smstone22
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There are areas here where turkeys simply will not gobble. They are mainly isolated flocks that dont get much interaction with other turkeys other than what is right in their immediate vicinity. They dont have to gobble to attract hens, they know right where everyone is already. Theres several places Ive hunted like this for years and have never heard a peep out of them besides spittin and drummin.
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#1299781 - 04/22/09 12:30 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: smstone22]
REN
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 Originally Posted By: steven stone
There are areas here where turkeys simply will not gobble. They are mainly isolated flocks that dont get much interaction with other turkeys other than what is right in their immediate vicinity. They dont have to gobble to attract hens, they know right where everyone is already. Theres several places Ive hunted like this for years and have never heard a peep out of them besides spittin and drummin.


it would be debatable if that is due to "genetics" though or just a result of the area they live in and need.

if you relocated those birds to west TN with more birds would they gobble, i would guess they would be its a good question.
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#1299829 - 04/22/09 01:06 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: REN]
Huntaholic
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Ive been concerned with that very question for years now and I tend to think YES we are "high grading" the population by killing the ones that gobble the most! I used to ask people this simple question: If you call up multiple birds at a time, do you shoot the one thats gobbling and strutting? Almost without fail, everybody wants to shoot the strutter. IMHO thats the one we DONT want to shoot! If you kill that silent bird chances are you can come back a day or two later and still kill the one that was gobbling, but if you kill him first, that other bird still wont gobble or work!
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#1299846 - 04/22/09 01:13 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: smstone22]
Rack_man
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I heard of pheasant hunters in the midwest saying that more and more pheasants are starting to try and run instead of flushing. They think its cuz the ones that flush are being shot leaving the runners to breed since the dogs sometimes losses there scent. I dont know though I aint a pheasant hunter
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#1299920 - 04/22/09 02:33 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: Huntaholic]
REN
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 Originally Posted By: Huntaholic
Ive been concerned with that very question for years now and I tend to think YES we are "high grading" the population by killing the ones that gobble the most! I used to ask people this simple question: If you call up multiple birds at a time, do you shoot the one thats gobbling and strutting? Almost without fail, everybody wants to shoot the strutter. IMHO thats the one we DONT want to shoot! If you kill that silent bird chances are you can come back a day or two later and still kill the one that was gobbling, but if you kill him first, that other bird still wont gobble or work!



no disrespect but that doesnt make much sense....why are the others not strutting or gobbling?? maybe because the one that is doing it is the dominate bird amongst them. I mean i have seen toms out in fields just eating along with hens NOT strutting but then can call them in and all the sudden they get 50yds out and go into strut so which category is that one in.

Deer grunt, does bleat and turkeys gobble. I see no biological reason why a turkey would genetically assosiate gobbling with danger. It is not the gobbling that is getting them killed alot of the times it is the desire to breed. So are we saying that we are killing all the hetero turkeys and only the ones who dont want to mate or like males will be the only ones left. i mean those wont come into hen calls for sure lol

I am just not really seeing the picture here on how one can think in years to come turkeys may not gobble because we are killing all the ones that do.


are geese going to stop honking because we are killing the geese that do? are Elk going to stop bugling because we kill the ones that are doing it now. TO ME it makes no sense. Rattle snakes yeah because it is a adaptation of survival but turkeys gobbling or not will not make a huge impact on survival so there is no real need to adapt
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#1299925 - 04/22/09 02:36 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: Rack_man]
megalomaniac
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C'mon down here to South MS and turkey hunt. You'll quickly realize that the birds just don't talk after flydown. Sure, you'll get a few gobbles on the roost and a courtesy gobble right after flydown, but that's it. It's extremely rare to call in a gobbling bird here. They almost always come in silent.

The reason? We've actually had a population of turkeys here that dates back to pre- white man. Although the population got low back in the early 1900's, they were never wiped out. Organized hunting for over 50 years. That many years of pressure I believe has resulted in the lack of gobbling.

Heck, it's so boring that I don't even hunt down here much. I'd much rather go back to TN where I can get a bird to respond at 10AM, 2PM, or even 4 PM.

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#1299929 - 04/22/09 02:39 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: REN]
megalomaniac
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 Originally Posted By: REN
are Elk going to stop bugling because we kill the ones that are doing it now. TO ME it makes no sense.


Go hunt elk in Colorado on private land vs public land. You'll see quite a difference in the amount of bugling. Same species, but exhibited behaviour is completely different. Is it genetics or simply adaptation to hunting pressure? Who knows, but it is real.

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#1299937 - 04/22/09 02:56 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: megalomaniac]
REN
Good ol' Boys "Team Grizzly"
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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
 Originally Posted By: REN
are Elk going to stop bugling because we kill the ones that are doing it now. TO ME it makes no sense.


Go hunt elk in Colorado on private land vs public land. You'll see quite a difference in the amount of bugling. Same species, but exhibited behaviour is completely different. Is it genetics or simply adaptation to hunting pressure? Who knows, but it is real.



i am not debating it is REAL, my point is it being GENETIC or a result of hunting pressure? same can be said for whitetail on public land anywhere they are hunted they obviously act different. Basically is the issue you have in southern MS a result of the area and environment they live in or the bird themselves? IF you moved those birds to middle or west TN with other birds would they gobble more? i would say absolutely because i see no biological reason why they wouldn't. I have no proof or data to back up my theory just the knowledge of the species I leaned in college (i did go to Auburn so that knowledge may not mean much lol)
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#1299940 - 04/22/09 03:00 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: megalomaniac]
CopperHead77
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I just never have had to deal with birds not gobbling day after day after day,yes there are days where they don't respond and the woods are quiet but usually they'll pick back up in a day or two,and if you go a week without hearing a bird chances are there aren't any in that area,that's been my experience around here anyway.
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#1299959 - 04/22/09 03:13 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: CopperHead77]
REN
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But whitetail I dont see that as a genetic effect which is what the original post is asking. I have been quite a few days this year that once the bird hit the ground not another word the rest of the day but that is just what happens sometimes, and sometimes it can be days or weeks for some i guess.

Just to be clear I could be very wrong as i have been before this is just my personal opinion.

I guess the real question would be IS gobbling to breed a GENETIC trait and would the species of turkey have a reason to associate gobbling with danger and evolve/adapt to not doing it anymore to allow the species to have a much higher survival rate? Throughout history the majority of animals that evolved from there normal traits did so to basically allow the species to survive, so would a turkey NOT gobbling allow such an impact that it would allow the species to survive at a much higher capacity? Granted there are exceptions to the evolution of animals and in some species the adaptation was small but the overall plan was to allow the animal to survive in a changing environment ie rattle snakes not rattling as mentioned before.

again just my .2cents
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#1300140 - 04/22/09 05:10 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: REN]
ghosthunter
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 Originally Posted By: REN
TO ME it makes no sense. Rattle snakes yeah because it is a adaptation of survival but turkeys gobbling or not will not make a huge impact on survival so there is no real need to adapt

The snakes not rattling may be mother nature's way of survival for the rattle snakes but I doubt that the snakes are smart enough to say, hey if I rattle I will get killed. Same for the birds. The birds I kill, I'm sure the same is for about eveyone else, are the ones that gobble. If they don't gobble I really don't have anything to hunt, therefore leaving the non gobbling birds to survive. Now if this is the situation I'm not sure and I certainly hope not, but it does make a lot of sense. BTW a gobbler doesn't need to gobble to find hens. The hens will do enough talking themselves.


Edited by ghosthunter (04/22/09 05:10 PM)
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#1300144 - 04/22/09 05:13 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: ]
ghosthunter
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 Originally Posted By: bsl
I think peolpe are worrying to much about all of this.
I'm defintely a bit concerned when I'm not hearing the gobbling and killing the birds like I use along with the rest of the state and the state says that our flock is ok. They blame our low harvest on weather conditions, but I hunt on many ideal days with little results and the sign I find in the woods seems to be much less than years before.
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#1300167 - 04/22/09 05:31 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: megalomaniac]
Huntaholic
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 Originally Posted By: megalomaniac
C'mon down here to South MS and turkey hunt. You'll quickly realize that the birds just don't talk after flydown. Sure, you'll get a few gobbles on the roost and a courtesy gobble right after flydown, but that's it. It's extremely rare to call in a gobbling bird here. They almost always come in silent.

The reason? We've actually had a population of turkeys here that dates back to pre- white man. Although the population got low back in the early 1900's, they were never wiped out. Organized hunting for over 50 years. That many years of pressure I believe has resulted in the lack of gobbling.

Heck, it's so boring that I don't even hunt down here much. I'd much rather go back to TN where I can get a bird to respond at 10AM, 2PM, or even 4 PM.

EXACTLY MY POINT!!! Some folks, not directing this at anyone in particular, havent ever hunted the true stockings that GOD put here, not TWRA! Catoosa is one of the few examples of this around here. As far as I know, and Ive talked to some of the old guys that were there, Catoosa has never been stocked with transplant birds. Yes, they tried some of that stuff back in the 60's of releasing pen raised birds, but it failed miserably. The birds there are the ones God put there and theyve been hunted longer and harder than most anywhere else in the state and guess what???? One bird around here will gobble more on an average day than a Catoosa bird will gobble all season! On a rare occasion you will find one that the recessive gobbling gene has came out on, but on average they dont gobble! Turkeys dont HAVE to gobble to attract and mate with hens! I know that may come as a news flash to some, but its the truth.
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#1300307 - 04/22/09 07:19 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: ghosthunter]
spitndrum
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Interesting!!!

I dont know how to respond it could be??
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#1300401 - 04/22/09 08:23 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: spitndrum]
Huntaholic
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LOL its all just food for thought anyway folks! \:\)
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#1300541 - 04/22/09 09:31 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: Huntaholic]
Game Eye
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Hunting pressure fellas, plain and simple... I'm tellin ya...
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#1300909 - 04/23/09 07:06 AM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: ]
CopperHead77
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I realize a bird doesn't have to gobble,but come on, at some point,he won't have hens,they'll be nesting,uninterested..whatever..he will gobble!! But again,I've never hunted a spot that was full of gobblers that wouldn't gobble so I'm just going off of personal experience.
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#1300911 - 04/23/09 07:07 AM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: ]
CopperHead77
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 Originally Posted By: captain hook
 Originally Posted By: Game Eye
Hunting pressure fellas, plain and simple... I'm tellin ya...


I agree with you, too many folks hammer their birds pre season and the first week or so, and wonder why they disappear. They put way too much pressure on the birds when the birds are totally locked down with hens.


Agree also.
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#1301071 - 04/23/09 09:18 AM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: ghosthunter]
REN
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 Originally Posted By: ghosthunter
 Originally Posted By: REN
TO ME it makes no sense. Rattle snakes yeah because it is a adaptation of survival but turkeys gobbling or not will not make a huge impact on survival so there is no real need to adapt

The snakes not rattling may be mother nature's way of survival for the rattle snakes but I doubt that the snakes are smart enough to say, hey if I rattle I will get killed. Same for the birds. The birds I kill, I'm sure the same is for about eveyone else, are the ones that gobble. If they don't gobble I really don't have anything to hunt, therefore leaving the non gobbling birds to survive. Now if this is the situation I'm not sure and I certainly hope not, but it does make a lot of sense. BTW a gobbler doesn't need to gobble to find hens. The hens will do enough talking themselves.



right but not ALL people hunt turkeys by calling and setting up on a vocal bird. I would even estimate that a large percentage of people deer hunt them which will have no impact on a bird gobbling or not.

again i am not arguing that some areas gobble more then others and that pressure as well as hens will play a MAJOR role in the vocalization of a turkey but IS it genetic that a bird would not gobble because people are killing the ones that do??? I dont think so.
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#1309474 - 04/30/09 05:46 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: REN]
Anonymous TnDeer Old Timer
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no. the more gobblers around, the more they gobble. the fewer in an area, less gobbling and more sensitive to pressure.
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#1309523 - 04/30/09 06:35 PM Re: Depleting Gobbling Genetics??? [Re: ]
Hatchee
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 Originally Posted By: captain hook
Huntaholic, I hope you are directing your post towards me. I have been fortunate to hunt turkeys in the areas which Tom Kelly writes about, and they gobble great when not henned up beyond recognition.

I will say that some parts of the SE birds gobble more then others, the valley birds here gobble like idiots, while the mtn birds are less vocal on average.



Hook, I've hunted a lot of those places too. We hunted an island in the Mississippi River back in the 80's that probably had more turkeys per acre than anywhere I've ever been, I mean every little clearing you came up to, there'd be turkeys in it. I've never heard less gobbling and seen more turkeys. You'd yelp and you'd just as soon shoot over their heads. I was hunting with guys that their Grandaddys had turkey hunted these same woods. (Generational hunting pressure) Genetic or pressure? Probably a little of both. The challenge was to adapt and kill 'em anyway.
I will say that my personal honey holes have gotten harder to hunt (call/work birds) with more hens.
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