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#1185190 - 02/17/09 06:02 AM Re: Caney Fork [Re: B.D.]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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 Originally Posted By: Brian Dunigan
 Originally Posted By: gil1

I recall your saying that you couldn't kill enough fish to see the difference, that the Caney had enough big fish that you would never be able to dent the fishery.


I thought that was Tuba that said that. If bowriter said that, chalk me up as disagreeing.

The Caney doesn't follow natural cycles like a wild stream, where you have strong year classes and weak year classes depending on favorable conditions for the spawn. Good spawning conditions or bad, the stocking truck dumps fish in just the same.

There are two big things that affect the Caney. First is water quality, which TWRA & the Corps are improving - though some years are inevitably better than others. The second is harvest. If it takes "x" number of years to grow an 18" brown trout, and half of Nashville is down there every weekend, every year putting 18" browns on stringers, it's going to put a dent in the numbers.

bd


If Tubs said, then I dissagree, too. \:\)

Brian you are right in some aspects. Yes, we agree on water quality. Yes, you can deplete a trophy class. But not on the Caney. Although the fishing pressure has increased 1000X since I first started fishing and guding on that river, we have seldom if ever had a better big fish year than last year. I sure can't recall one in 30 plus years of running that ditch.

But we have a big dissagreemnt on cyclical. You can bet your Orvis credit card that sucker is cyclical on the fish 8-pounds and up and it has nothing to do with fishing pressure. It has to do with where people are fishing. It is not nearly so much age calsses as it is movement of the fish due to forage and generation. One of the biggest detractors to the Caney is the rockfish population.

And maybe Gil and M-80 rocks.
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#1185198 - 02/17/09 06:17 AM Re: Caney Fork [Re: bowriter]
ewc
8 Point


Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 2273
Loc: Knoxville

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Rockfish don't eat trout.

They eat walleye, sauger, smallmouth bass, largemouth bass, and crappie (both white and black, but not black nose).

Occasionally, in certain drainage's, they gorge themselves on snail darters too-

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#1185201 - 02/17/09 06:21 AM Re: Caney Fork [Re: ewc]
bowriter
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EWC-They are the number one live bait for rockfish and big bass. If you are a zebra fishermen, I have to assume you are being sarcastic. \:\)
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#1185217 - 02/17/09 06:34 AM Re: Caney Fork [Re: bowriter]
ewc
8 Point


Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 2273
Loc: Knoxville

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\:\) Humor is how I start my day. You should have heard my routine before I left the house-

I was involved in the striped bass debacle in the mid-late 90's on Norris when every angler thought that SB gorged themselves on their "chosen" species.

I have caught rockfish up to 30# on trout here in EastTN. I know they will eat them, but I also know that trout is not their primary diet. They prey primarily on pelagic species.

However, they are opportunistic - just like the rest of us.

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#1185334 - 02/17/09 07:52 AM Re: Caney Fork [Re: bowriter]
B.D.
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Registered: 03/24/08
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Loc: Hendersonville TN

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 Originally Posted By: bowriter

But we have a big dissagreemnt on cyclical. You can bet your Orvis credit card that sucker is cyclical on the fish 8-pounds and up and it has nothing to do with fishing pressure. It has to do with where people are fishing. It is not nearly so much age calsses as it is movement of the fish due to forage and generation. One of the biggest detractors to the Caney is the rockfish population.


The stripers aren't eating many browns in the 8 pound class.

I would respectfully suggest that we "seldom had a better big fish year than last year" because we have now the best regulations we've seen in those 30 years, along with an unprecedented effort to improve water quality.

Unfortunately, that "best big fish year" also drew unprecedented pressure to the river. People were coming from Arkansas instead of going to the White, from Atlanta instead of going to the Hooch. The pressure overtook the new regs. We still probably have more 17 inch browns than ever, but that's where it cuts off.

Your "wrong end of the river" argument only goes so far. If you spent much time on the "wrong end of the river" last year, you saw more boats there than ever before, and a lot of big fish coming out on stringers that would have slipped by a few years ago. I know I did.

Besides, trout don't just move back and forth in the river with no rhyme or reason. It's predictable. When October-December rolls around, I can show you a list of spots where easily 85 percent of the browns over 16 in. will be congregated. All but about 5 of those spots got absolutely massacred during the spawn last fall. We're seeing the product of that now.

bd


Edited by Brian Dunigan (02/17/09 07:52 AM)

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#1185415 - 02/17/09 08:20 AM Re: Caney Fork [Re: B.D.]
Fordman
12 Point


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hmmmm I wonder how much pressure was because of the internet talk forum publicity the river got. I have seen the same guy posting his "reports" on no less than four different forums....
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#1185688 - 02/17/09 10:09 AM Re: Caney Fork [Re: gil1]
Headhunter
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Hopefully there are still plenty of trout to use for bait for catching stripers.
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#1185689 - 02/17/09 10:10 AM Re: Caney Fork [Re: Fordman]
Tubakka
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Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 782
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God....can't leave the kids in the room alone with the lightsocket...somebody's going to wet their finger up their @$$ and stick their finger in it...

I've not BEEN to the Caney since September [although that's going to change soon] and I still get props on here...outstanding. They ain't no such thing as bad press. Look, the reason I've been such a jerk over things in the past is such a thing as this...ignorance. Who gives a rat's what they shock up? I saw a study before that only showed a couple fish 20-21". Shocking...in a tailrace...is a joke. Shocking...in a lake...is a joke, UNLESS you apply proper knowledge to it. NO ONE in the field really applies the angling knowledge pertaining to weather and water conditions [i.e. you go shocking on Dale Hollow the day after a cold front? You ain't going to pull to many fish...in fact, you'd probably think the lake was DEAD, because they're all down 30-40 feet at least]. In the nature of a tailrace when you're dealing with current, that messes with things inherently, as fish automatically drift when stunned and may not rise up as planned for netting. The only place I can imagine it to be truly effective might be over up by the dam, right along that current line. It's only 5-7 feet deep there then and you might be able to take a good sample there. netting of course is out of the question. If you really want to see how many big fish are in there, go shocking during the spawn and watch how many 10-20 pound fish roll up. I've never been one too much to depend or give much notice to shocking surveys on larger or flowing waters. A pond? Yes. Not a large lake, and not a river, I don't care how many formulas they throw into it. 90% of the fish are in 10% of the water and all that...and most of the surveys conducted are "scientifically unbiased" so they don't take into account things most angler would know inherently. So if you're not shocking in that 10% of water, your numbers are skewed.
The only REAL way to assess a fishery is through FISHING. Creel reports and surveys and your own hook-and-line assessment. The state was shocking 10 pound walleyes out of Kinkaid Lake for years and people weren't catching them, thus all they were doing were depleting resources for bass and muskies and occasionally giving a crappie fisherman someting to write home about. It was wasted money and resources...and it didn't matter WHAT was being SHOCKED...even though the fish WERE there, they weren't being caught. The situation you describe on the Caney is reciprocal to this.
Of course, compared to Florida, TN is a genius of fisheries management. It continues to amaze me how they keep placing tighter and tighter regs on the snook fishermen when the real problem is the jewfish that live below the pier that are still a protected species under an archaic ruling...they can't be harvested, they can't be harmed...under any means...and they are sucking up 30-40 pound snook and redfish like a largemouth does a shiner, and the state wonders WHY THE REGS AREN'T MAKING THINGS BETTER???
All this aside, let's go by what people are CATCHING. Just because you aren't HEARING about it doesn't mean its not happening. I just get a small slice of that, but I know my boys were out a couple weeks ago, got 4 21"+ fish in about 3 hours, and then just called it quits. Another boat in the same party got 3. They've been routinely hooking and breaking off fish in the 30" class range, and seeing even larger. I had a friend, a psych professor I turned onto the jerkbait thing before I left, bring a 15" to the boat back a few months and had a brown [he got a good look at it...it was not a rockfish] come out from under the boat and slash it...slashed a 15" brown trout. He then again hooked a brown that he got to shore but was unable to land that he says had a head like a football. This is a man with a doctorate. He's got nothing to prove...he's not doing to lie. I myself, come up for 2 DAYS in September, and get several keeper fish, one being 25.5", and seeing a couple considerably larger behind my bait.
All this aside, anything you say concerning this is conjectural until a regulation is passed. I still get tickled by the fact that some think that at the current stocking rate that catch-and-release is the way to go. Gil, I love you.. you seem like a smart guy, but God man....it's called a Put-and-take FISHERY. The reason it exists is BECAUSE of harvest. You take that away, there will be NO FISH IN THE RIVER. Most of the people paying for trout stamps are harvesters. And I get sick of being labeled some stupid hick [the latter part I take some pride in] for wanting to harvest a couple nice fish now and then. And anyone who thinks that we should put stocked brown trout and rainbows under the same protective status that we do manatees and red pands is some kind of Prius-driving progressive thinker. It's a joke! And then you all get on here and squabble like a bunch of gulls yelling "Mine! MINE! MINE!" because you all think that it's YOUR fishery. Do I think there should be a slight alteration in regs? Yes. I think the minimum brown kept should be 20" 1 between that and 24", and then protected to 28-30" and then have that open for trophy fish. that is my take. For rainbows? There's a reason they're bigger for the most part down where no one fishes...I say protected slot for rainbows 14" to 20". That gives the old farts with their RVs down there to catch some dinner and enjoy themselves and them allows for some larger rainbows to grow. DO I tink t he regs at this point are a death sentence to the river? NO...angling ignorance is doing a good enough job at keeping the fishery safe for overharvest. It may seem like alot of fish to you guys, but the man I study after caught 120 bass between 4-12 pound out of a 22,000 acre lake...Apopka after the state of FL had said there were no game fish in it after shocking, netting, and even spiking sections of the lake. That WAS a very special situation, but I've never been one to think that the majority is ever really tapping into what a fishery has to offer. When there are still browns that come up and attack 15" trout, and guys catch 20 pound plus on live brook trout...I ask you again, how many of you are TARGETING those size fish with THAT large of prey? Ever notice how the largest rockfish in the Cumby almost always fall to someone using a 15-20" skipjack? not a 9-10" jerkbait or swimbait?

...alright I'm done.


Edited by Tubakka (02/17/09 10:12 AM)

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#1185690 - 02/17/09 10:10 AM Re: Caney Fork [Re: Tubakka]
Tubakka
6 Point


Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 782
Loc: Tennessee

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..>RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!....
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#1185743 - 02/17/09 10:39 AM Re: Caney Fork [Re: Tubakka]
bowriter
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Registered: 08/31/02
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Loc: Lebanon,TN USA

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Well, I didn't read it all...in fact only the first one two sentences. But I have to agree with what little I read. Dam boy, learn how to make a paragraph!

Brian-I believe if we sat down to getrher, you...and I would find, we are saying the same thing, just approaching from different angles. If I were to explain my "wrong end of the river" statement, I'll bet you would agree. Quit confusing trout pressure with general fishing pressure. It is not the fishing pressure that is "moving" the fish. It is that which causes the cyclical change.

Pressure reduces population and willingness of the fish to strike. It does not make them move. I have no desire to go to the trouble but I'll bet some icthyologist can prove that.

If he went to class.

Now you also have to quit trying to compare the ditch to wild streams. Apples and orangutans.
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