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#1148144 - 01/26/09 07:40 AM Things "newbies" should keep in mind
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4059
Loc: Tennessee

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I want to help. I hope nobody gets irritated by my comments. But I pretty sure the idea behind Tndeer is for hunters to talk, relate, learn, help each other.

Here goes:

Who am I?

I am a bowhunter first, a deer hunter second, a mature deer hunter third.

I BOW killed my FIRST deer at AEDC in 1981. I have competed in COUNTLESS archery tournaments. Indoors and out.

I have EVERY single deer that I have EVER killed logged onto a spread sheet. EVERY deer. Along with photo albums, KILL TAGS, and pertinent info about such things as wound, distance to shot, weather, recovery distance, etc. I also have ACTUAL video footage of many of my kills. For me, it is a GREAT hobby.

I've owned and killed deer with about 15 different bows.

I've shot, and killed deer with ALL kinds of broadheads.

I know some things about Archery. And I'd like to help any and all would be bowhunters, to be successful.

When you are considering buying a new bow, always remember that there are some BASIC guidelines to consider. As far as I can tell, these guidelines have NEVER changed. I am pretty sure they are governed by the laws of Physics.

In general, as arrow speed increases, accuracy suffers. Let me explain. (And PLEASE remember, the ultimate goal here is to make you a better BOW hunter, though these MAY apply to target archers).

Generally speaking, FAST blazing speed bows are associated with SHORT brace height. Brace height is simply put as the straight line distance between the webbing of your bow hand contact part of the bow, and the string.

To the extreme...a 9 inch "bracey" (brace height), will generally be a slow bow when compared to a 6 inch bracey.

BUT...the arrow will leave the string of the 9 inch MUCH quicker than the 6 inch bow. THis allows for less bow hand torque and thus more accuracy downrange.

The 9 inch bracey bow while slower, will generally have much tighter groups.

This is an OVER simplification of a bow characteristic. But it is an IMPORTANT one. This is why it is SOOOO critical that the would be buyer of a bow shoot the bow first to see how it shoots for them. Generally, most hunters accuracy will benefit from a little slower and more accurate bow.

It is important that archers not fall into the speed trap and sacrifice accuracy along the way. Some archers can shoot short brace height bows accurately and some benefit from a longer bracey. Point is, find the "happy medium" of speed and accuracy that works best for you.

102
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

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#1148275 - 01/26/09 08:55 AM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: 102]
JayMc
10 Point


Registered: 08/09/04
Posts: 2909
Loc: TN

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Who would get irritated by helpful comments?

Good stuff 102, thanks for sharing!

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#1148282 - 01/26/09 08:59 AM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: JayMc]
POSSUM HUNTER
16 Point


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 10212
Loc: Over yonder

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good stuff 102
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Theoretical Flash Mob founding member

Daytime crew part time member

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#1148318 - 01/26/09 09:30 AM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: POSSUM HUNTER]
Grizzly Johnson
Team Grizzly
16 Point


Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 15287
Loc: Tennessee

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Sharing and learning is what it's all about brother.... thanks, good post!!
_________________________
But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

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#1148333 - 01/26/09 09:57 AM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: Grizzly Johnson]
WTM
8 Point


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 1956
Loc: CAMDEN, TN

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excellent post. might i add, that cam choice can make a huge difference in forgiveness with beginning shooters. round wheel or soft cams may not be blazing but plenty fast to kill deer. i remember my first hard cam bow, a machflite 4. it was fast at that time, but vibration and torque felt like it was jerking my arm out of socket. i just had to have one cause my brother had one. sold that thing and went back to a soft cam setup.

single cam can be a good compromise between the two, but in todays world people wont settle for adequate, but demand performance and sometimes over accuracy. i bet if folks would settle for adequate they would be a little happier and might put a few more deer in the freezer.

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#1148408 - 01/26/09 10:39 AM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: WTM]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4059
Loc: Tennessee

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WTM,
Nice add!
Hard cam bows are usually associated with hard string roll over. And worse yet...narrow valleys and a HARD back wall. I've shot bows that allowed for NO forward creep at all. Instead almost pulling your shoulder out of socket during let-off. This can make for difficulty when hunting and either having to bend at the waist or let down on a deer who just takes forever to "step out".

102
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

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#1148642 - 01/26/09 12:32 PM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: ]
Hoss
TnDeer Old Timer
8 Point


Registered: 02/14/00
Posts: 1465
Loc: Hendersonville , TN

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Good Post 102. There is a lot of factors that affect a bows shootability or forgiveness. Brace height is one of them. A biggee. Cams, Reflex or Deflex geometry, axle to axle length, limb angle, draw length and weight, all these things also affect shootability in varying degrees. That is why it is so important to shoot lots of bows and get the one that feels right. Most beginning archers would be much better served with a medium performance and priced bow that the latest and greatest. I compare it to teaching a 16 year old boy how to drive in the family sedan or the uncles rail dragster. It's the same concept.

Everything in archery is a tradeoff. Nothing comes without a price.

Accuracy is king and speed is the clown prince.
_________________________
"The future of bowhunting depends on effective education"..... Bill Wadsworth

A mere shadow of the man I once was... Me!

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#1148748 - 01/26/09 01:05 PM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: Hoss]
Radar
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31209
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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 Originally Posted By: Hoss
Good Post 102. There is a lot of factors that affect a bows shootability or forgiveness. Brace height is one of them. A biggee. Cams, Reflex or Deflex geometry, axle to axle length, limb angle, draw length and weight, all these things also affect shootability in varying degrees. That is why it is so important to shoot lots of bows and get the one that feels right. Most beginning archers would be much better served with a medium performance and priced bow that the latest and greatest. I compare it to teaching a 16 year old boy how to drive in the family sedan or the uncles rail dragster. It's the same concept.

Everything in archery is a tradeoff. Nothing comes without a price.

Accuracy is king and speed is the clown prince.



I agree .
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#1148973 - 01/26/09 03:29 PM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: Radar]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4059
Loc: Tennessee

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Everything in archery is a tradeoff. Nothing comes without a price.

Accuracy is king and speed is the clown prince. [/quote]


Truer words were never spoken!

102


Edited by 102 (01/26/09 03:43 PM)
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

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#1149141 - 01/26/09 05:39 PM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: 102]
fishboy1
16 Point


Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 10531
Loc: Warren Co

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My .02

Bow hunting is a game of mistakes. Make few/no mistakes and your success will go up.

Scrutinize your equipment with the idea that you will remove potential mistakes from your set up. Usually that means simplify.
Especially when starting out!

There are trade offs to every shortcut.
ex.
A pendlum sight will remove the potential mistake of picking the wrong pin at the moment of truth. BUT it is a piece of equipment that can fail, get bent, or even fail with a piece of grass or twig in the pivot thus adding a potential mistake.
_________________________
If you can't trust people with freedom, how can you trust them with power ?




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#1149243 - 01/26/09 06:59 PM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: fishboy1]
Yank
6 Point


Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 511
Loc: Dunlap/Sequatchie Co.

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Agreed, very good post! \:\) But in reference to "speed", how fast is too fast and why?

~yank
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Quit whining and HUNT!

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#1149568 - 01/26/09 09:36 PM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: Yank]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4059
Loc: Tennessee

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Fast is TOO fast when accuracy, forgiveness, and noise, (to name a few) are sacrificed to gain the speed.

Remember. SPEED is usually a benefit for mistakes when judging distance. THis is a quality that many competitive archers look for in their set ups. It definitely will give an archer an edge when they make a mistake, say a yard or three, especially at the longer 3-D shoots and smaller x-rings.

The "perfect" set up for 3-D target archery may not be a good set up for actual hunting conditions. Especially when one considers that the average bow killed deer is less than 20 yards away.

At one time, I shot a bow that I thought could never be made. It had a 9.25 inch brace height, and shot my 400 grain hunting arrow at a blazing 270 fps. This was set at 63 pounds draw weight, 33 inch axle to axle, and 75% let off on ONE cam. AMAZINGLY accurate and forgiving bow. I literally could not shoot groups at 35 yards because it was too costly replacing the shot up arrows. It lasted one year before falling apart. THe Company gave me another newer version with a 7 inch brace height. Seems the bow with the 9.25 bracey just would not hold up for anyone. I am still waiting for another company to produce one.

Everyone is wired different. Some people can drive tacks with blazing speed bows and short braceys. I have never met any of those people. Most really good archers I know, (and I know a BUNCH), find the right combination of speed and forgiveness in a bow, and stick to it. For most I know, it is generally around a 7.25-8.25 bracey, and about 260-275 fps with an arrow wt. in the 350-400 gr (total) range. Most use these set-ups for 3-D and hunting.

102
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

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#1149581 - 01/26/09 09:40 PM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: 102]
UTGrad
14 Point


Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 9569
Loc: Franklin, TN

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Speed doesn't matter to me right now. I just want to shoot right now.
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#1152836 - 01/28/09 07:19 PM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: UTGrad]
stopmount
4 Point


Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 431
Loc: TNTNTN

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Agree completely 102. I shot with an old Hoyt fastflight cranked up to 80 pounds with overdraw. I believed the faster my bow shot, the better the odds of a kill. I found out the hard way though after shooting deer at distances of 15 yards and never finding them. I am not one to give up either. Every deer I have shot with a bow that I didn't see fall, I would look for at least 8 hours even after blood dried up.
The fellow that sold me my bow at Gander Mountain last year (Griz is what they call him) helped explain that it's not about speed when I realized the bow I bought maxed out at 70 pounds.
It's Kenetic Energy. I cant remeber exactly, but he had a useful formula based on arrow length, poundage and broadhead grain that he used to show how much Energy was needed to kill each big game animal found in the world based on body size. If I can find the formula I'll post the formula.
This year was my 18th deer bowhunting and I have killed at least 20 deer with a bow, but I was comletely illiterate to that type of knowledge. I had no Idea.
_________________________
Death comes for all men, we just point you in the right direction. Marine Corps Snipers

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#1153693 - 01/29/09 10:13 AM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: stopmount]
102
10 Point


Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 4059
Loc: Tennessee

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There is a KE calculator on another bow web site.

102
_________________________
God, Family, Job, Bowhunting
Luck is where Opportunity and Preparation MEET!
When in doubt...back out!
SCAPAS.stay calm and pick a spot.

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#1154192 - 01/29/09 03:07 PM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: 102]
Radar
Non-Typical


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 31209
Loc: Kansas City, Mo.

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Today's "speed bows" are much different than the speed bows of the past . There are so many factors in gaining speed without sacrificing forgiveness through riser geometry and cam design , without going to short brace heights . The use of drop away rests and string stoppers even make short brace heights less of a factor .
Speed sells bows , but a well placed arrow is what counts .
_________________________

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#1154581 - 01/29/09 07:19 PM Re: Things "newbies" should keep in mind [Re: Radar]
Yank
6 Point


Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 511
Loc: Dunlap/Sequatchie Co.

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 Originally Posted By: Radar
Today's "speed bows" are much different than the speed bows of the past . There are so many factors in gaining speed without sacrificing forgiveness through riser geometry and cam design , without going to short brace heights . The use of drop away rests and string stoppers even make short brace heights less of a factor .
Speed sells bows , but a well placed arrow is what counts .


Good deal Radar! I was wondering if anybody else even realized this? I currently have two bows shooting in the low 300 fps range and have no trouble shooting 3" groups consistently at 40 yards. And I consider myself an amateur at best yet, I read on here regularly that speed is bad, what gives, why wouldn't newer technology and science make for an accurate speed bow?


There's a lot of nice equipment on the market today for us to reap the benefit of IMO. ;\)
_________________________
Quit whining and HUNT!

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